Wednesday, March 03, 2010
Protests over Prime Ministerial debates
Naturally, both Plaid Cymru and the SNP are upset over the decision to exclude them from debates between the Prime Ministerial candidates in the forthcoming General Election. But what did they expect?
Neither Alec Salmond nor Ieuan Wyn Jones are potential Prime Ministers of Great Britain and nor, I believe would they want to have that job. The argument that they have a reasonable amount of support in a small part of the UK and a few MPs could just as easily apply to the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland, and that does not convince either.
By far the most ludicrous argument I have heard so far though came on Radio Wales this morning from Plaid Cymru's Deputy Leader in the National Assembly. She argued that as the leader of the Bloc Québécois in Canada takes part in leaders' debates there then a precedent has been set for the participation of Plaid Cymru and the SNP here.
The problem with this suggestion however lies in the relative strength of the nationalist parties in each country. Bloc Québécois has 48 seats out of 308 in the Canadian National Parliament and is the third largest party. Quebec itself has 75 of the 308 seats, the largest party has just 145.
Here in Britain, Plaid Cymru have just 3 seats out of a total of 646. They are the third party in Wales in Parliamentary terms and are an irrelevance in the House of Commons. They will be lucky to improve on that result in the General Election. There simply is no comparison.
Neither Alec Salmond nor Ieuan Wyn Jones are potential Prime Ministers of Great Britain and nor, I believe would they want to have that job. The argument that they have a reasonable amount of support in a small part of the UK and a few MPs could just as easily apply to the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland, and that does not convince either.
By far the most ludicrous argument I have heard so far though came on Radio Wales this morning from Plaid Cymru's Deputy Leader in the National Assembly. She argued that as the leader of the Bloc Québécois in Canada takes part in leaders' debates there then a precedent has been set for the participation of Plaid Cymru and the SNP here.
The problem with this suggestion however lies in the relative strength of the nationalist parties in each country. Bloc Québécois has 48 seats out of 308 in the Canadian National Parliament and is the third largest party. Quebec itself has 75 of the 308 seats, the largest party has just 145.
Here in Britain, Plaid Cymru have just 3 seats out of a total of 646. They are the third party in Wales in Parliamentary terms and are an irrelevance in the House of Commons. They will be lucky to improve on that result in the General Election. There simply is no comparison.
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Makes no difference to me, as I don't really care who gets into power in London.
However, the whole thing was toted, from the start (by Sky) as LEADERS DEBATES. That was fine, until it was realised that Plaid and the SNP would have to be included, then it was deliberately changed to PM DEBATES specifically to exclude them. Therein is the problem
If the three main parties and three main media providers collude to exclude political parties, how is that democracy? It isn't. It's getting like Australia, where only the "official" political line is allowed. How long until no-one except the government in power is allowed air-time? Not long, judging by this.
In a democracy, everyone is supposed to have equal promotional time. Sky, as a private company, can do more-or-less what they like, but NOT giving equal time to all parties the BBC are breaking their own rules and charter. THAT is what bothers me, not whether Plaid are excluded or not. The WHY.
However, the whole thing was toted, from the start (by Sky) as LEADERS DEBATES. That was fine, until it was realised that Plaid and the SNP would have to be included, then it was deliberately changed to PM DEBATES specifically to exclude them. Therein is the problem
If the three main parties and three main media providers collude to exclude political parties, how is that democracy? It isn't. It's getting like Australia, where only the "official" political line is allowed. How long until no-one except the government in power is allowed air-time? Not long, judging by this.
In a democracy, everyone is supposed to have equal promotional time. Sky, as a private company, can do more-or-less what they like, but NOT giving equal time to all parties the BBC are breaking their own rules and charter. THAT is what bothers me, not whether Plaid are excluded or not. The WHY.
On that argument Peter Kirsty Williams and the Lib Dems should not be givejn a voice in debates on the European elections or the Welsh Assembly. They are an irrelevance at both levels. 4th at the assembly with just 6 seats and 5th in Europe with none.
# posted by 
: 10:33 AM
: 10:33 AM
Well in the European elections we have a significant block of MEPs because Europe is more than just Wales. As for the Assembly we hold ten per cent of the seats and poll 13% plus. That is far in excess of what Plaid do at a UK level. Plaid's problem is that they want their cake and eat it. They set themselves up as a Wales-only party and then get upset when others take them at their word.
Plaid will improve on it Peter and you know that. I would guess around 5 - 7 seats worst to best. They are also in coalition with the SNP so the group total should be considered and the SNP will also make gains.
# posted by : 10:40 AM
: 10:40 AM
We will see if Plaid improve on their seats or not. As for the SNP have you seen the latest opinion polls in Scotland. They are on their way down as disillusionment sets in over Alec Salmond. Plaid and the SNP have little in common and even less when it comes to the Barnett formula.
As for the celtic block the five Lib Dem Cornish MPs outnumber Plaid!
As for the celtic block the five Lib Dem Cornish MPs outnumber Plaid!
I am not arguing against the Lib Dems in Welsh debate, I always want to hear what every party has to say, I am simply pointing out on your logic when there are Welsh spesific debates you could make the argument that the Lib Dems are irrelivent and could be excluded under the same circumstances
# posted by : 10:42 AM
: 10:42 AM
Also, most importantly, Plaid Cymru are not fielding candidates in anything like all of the seats in the country. Therefore they have neither any desire nor hope of winning the election and having a Prime Minister.
# posted by : 11:37 AM
: 11:37 AM
I do not have a problem with Plaid or the SNP getting there say in politics... However, with them only standing in a small proportion of seats it would seem somewhat ludicrous to the vast majority of viewers if they were watching leaders of parties who they can not vote for in this election, and save moving to Scotland or Wales cannot vote for in subsequent elections. Unfortunately that is just the way it is- Unlike European Elections where I would accept a Green and a UKIP representative in such a debate, here it would appear to be somewhat counter productive.
I do not have a problem with Plaid or the SNP getting there say in politics... However, with them only standing in a small proportion of seats it would seem somewhat ludicrous to the vast majority of viewers if they were watching leaders of parties who they can not vote for in this election, and save moving to Scotland or Wales cannot vote for in subsequent elections. Unfortunately that is just the way it is- Unlike European Elections where I would accept a Green and a UKIP representative in such a debate, here it would appear to be somewhat counter productive.
Are you seriously suggesting Nick Clegg has a chance of being PM? The Swansea air must be heavy with optimism...
# posted by : 12:58 PM
: 12:58 PM
Anon, if enough people vote for the Lib Dems, then yes of course Nick Clegg has a chance of being PM - but that is up to the electorate.
However, no matter how many people vote for Plaid - let's say for argument's sake, they get 100% of the vote in every constituency that Plaid contest, then they will still not be anywhere near having enough seats to have the PM - that would be a total of 40 out of 646.
Plaid Cymru are a crazy bunch!
However, no matter how many people vote for Plaid - let's say for argument's sake, they get 100% of the vote in every constituency that Plaid contest, then they will still not be anywhere near having enough seats to have the PM - that would be a total of 40 out of 646.
Plaid Cymru are a crazy bunch!
# posted by : 1:40 PM
: 1:40 PM
Just been looking through the list of candidates for Plaid, haven't heard of the guy who's going to stand in Ogmore, who is he?????
Latest in a long line of Paper Plaid Candidates (PPCs)
Latest in a long line of Paper Plaid Candidates (PPCs)
# posted by : 3:24 PM
: 3:24 PM
Peter
On another issue.I've just read your article on Wales Home. Well done. Local government isn't the problem. It is part of the solution. If we had a more mature politics then we made be able to correct the mistakes of the 1990s where the last thing on the mind of David Hunt and co was good governance and democratic accountability.The key to re-engage voters with politics is the revival of real local democracy. In France my home town of Maesteg with a population of over 21000 would have avibrant local council responsible for numerous services not a small communityt council often frightened of its own shadow. Swansea like Cardiff should be a city region with real powers to regenerate the economy. Tip O'Neill once said that 'All politics is local'. He was right. For far too mnay people in Wales the Assembly is as remote as Westminster. The Assembly must have the confidence to see local government not as a threat but as a real partner in delivering better more accountable services to the people who really matter and that is Joe Public.
On another issue.I've just read your article on Wales Home. Well done. Local government isn't the problem. It is part of the solution. If we had a more mature politics then we made be able to correct the mistakes of the 1990s where the last thing on the mind of David Hunt and co was good governance and democratic accountability.The key to re-engage voters with politics is the revival of real local democracy. In France my home town of Maesteg with a population of over 21000 would have avibrant local council responsible for numerous services not a small communityt council often frightened of its own shadow. Swansea like Cardiff should be a city region with real powers to regenerate the economy. Tip O'Neill once said that 'All politics is local'. He was right. For far too mnay people in Wales the Assembly is as remote as Westminster. The Assembly must have the confidence to see local government not as a threat but as a real partner in delivering better more accountable services to the people who really matter and that is Joe Public.
# posted by : 10:18 AM
: 10:18 AM
Plaid's candidate in Ogmore is a former independent councillor who joined the party a couple of months ago. They sacked the previous candidate. Ogmore is a seat where if they were the real 'Party of Wales' you would expect them to be making some head way. They have just one councillor on Bridgend CBC who supports the Labour adminstration. Their base is Llangynwyd which has an electorate of about 2300. In the General Election as usual they will come fourth behind the Tories and Liberal Democrats. That's of course assuming that the BNP or UKIP have no candidates
# posted by : 11:59 AM
: 11:59 AM
Once again Britannia waves the rules. Originally the debates were labelled as leaders debates. When the “big three” realised that this could include the leaders of other parties the worked to prevent this and now we have Prime Minister Debates in attempt to exclude the Greens, Plaid, UKIP and SNP in particular.
However this is not the USA and we are not electing a President. Constitutionally the sovereign appoints the Prime Minister and particularly in the case of a hung Parliament this hasn’t got to be one of the leaders of the three main Parties or even a party leader at all.
I remind you that during the to and fro after the last assembly election. It was suggested that Dafydd Elis Thomas could become First Minister of a rainbow coalition. I would have thought the Lib Dems would be against the presidential approach to the position of PM.
However this is not the USA and we are not electing a President. Constitutionally the sovereign appoints the Prime Minister and particularly in the case of a hung Parliament this hasn’t got to be one of the leaders of the three main Parties or even a party leader at all.
I remind you that during the to and fro after the last assembly election. It was suggested that Dafydd Elis Thomas could become First Minister of a rainbow coalition. I would have thought the Lib Dems would be against the presidential approach to the position of PM.
@glynbeddau - might I point out that First Minister of Wales is a perfectly reasonable position for a Plaid Cymru Leader to aspire to, whereas Prime Minister of Great Britain really isn't? Since you seem to be thick enough to think they're synonymous...
@Cadrawd - Agree with you
Plaid's PPC is a real long standing member of the party then! Just TWO MONTHS ago he was an independent!
If Plaid was anything of a threat in the Llynfi Valley, Labour would be making a real song and dance about this..........BUT THEY ARE NOT!
I heard that they sacked the Woman PPC from Carmarthen for something, not sure what, perhaps you could enlighten us? She seemed to have some substance.
P.S. Nice to hear from Jeff Jones again.
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Plaid's PPC is a real long standing member of the party then! Just TWO MONTHS ago he was an independent!
If Plaid was anything of a threat in the Llynfi Valley, Labour would be making a real song and dance about this..........BUT THEY ARE NOT!
I heard that they sacked the Woman PPC from Carmarthen for something, not sure what, perhaps you could enlighten us? She seemed to have some substance.
P.S. Nice to hear from Jeff Jones again.
# posted by : 1:58 PM
: 1:58 PM<< Home
