Monday, December 01, 2008
An unchristian act
It seems that my decision to invite Patrick Jones to read his poems in the Welsh Assembly has lead to some 'Christian' groups putting it about that I want to close down churches and chapels around Wales. This is of course untrue.
It does make me wonder how anybody can call themselves a Christian and yet lie so blatantly about another individual. Have they never heard of practising what they preach?
It does make me wonder how anybody can call themselves a Christian and yet lie so blatantly about another individual. Have they never heard of practising what they preach?
Comments:
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This is the sort of thing the Labour Party practice - spreading rumors, like the one about the Lib Dems getting in Maesteg West they will set up a Drug Centre!
# posted by 
: 9:41 AM
: 9:41 AM
There's enough empty churches and chapels around anyway, religion in it's various guises is decreasing in popularity.
They are not catering to the wider population, this is their fault, not some second rate poet.
We are living in an increasingly secular society, and "putting it about" (bad terminology there Peter)that PB want's to close down churches is going to deter more people from attending these institutions than anything anyone else can say.
BTW I have yet to meet anywon who claimes to "be a good Christian" who actually is. Although I can honestly say, I do know quite a few good christians.
G. Lewis
Maesteg
They are not catering to the wider population, this is their fault, not some second rate poet.
We are living in an increasingly secular society, and "putting it about" (bad terminology there Peter)that PB want's to close down churches is going to deter more people from attending these institutions than anything anyone else can say.
BTW I have yet to meet anywon who claimes to "be a good Christian" who actually is. Although I can honestly say, I do know quite a few good christians.
G. Lewis
Maesteg
# posted by : 10:07 AM
: 10:07 AM
It was good that you invited Patrick Jones to read, but disloyal of you, and I think embarrassing for him, to then say you didn;t liek his poetry. Basically it reduces your gesture to tokenism, little better than the tokenistic anti-Patrick Jones groups, and makes him a pawn in politicians' games. His poetry is passionate and exciting and heartfelt, and reads better than anything Ive heard or read any politician say for years. If you don;t like his poetry you should stay out of it and not make gestures from his serious and passionate work.
really disappointed in what you've done here.
really disappointed in what you've done here.
# posted by : 1:17 PM
: 1:17 PM
To be precise I do not like the poem that is causing all the controversy but there are plenty of other good poems in there that I do like. There is nothing tokenistic about this. I am not doing it for art but for freedom of speech. My loyalties are to the democratic process. My invitation is to reinforce that point. It is not a gesture.
OK fair enough, but you were quoted in the Western Mail as saying you didn't like his poetry, full stop.
As for 'not doing it for art', I think that you ought to do it for art, actually, at least as much as you do it for freedom of speech. If we get into territory of people supporting writers for other reasons than their quality, it does become, in my view, tokenistic, however much you mean well in terms of taking on loony Xtian groups attacking freedom of expression.
And how does Mr lewis from Maesteg Lib Dems (you main contributor to the blog these days) know Jones is a 'second rate poet'? Has he actually read him?
As for 'not doing it for art', I think that you ought to do it for art, actually, at least as much as you do it for freedom of speech. If we get into territory of people supporting writers for other reasons than their quality, it does become, in my view, tokenistic, however much you mean well in terms of taking on loony Xtian groups attacking freedom of expression.
And how does Mr lewis from Maesteg Lib Dems (you main contributor to the blog these days) know Jones is a 'second rate poet'? Has he actually read him?
# posted by : 5:52 PM
: 5:52 PM
Can I support your comments about the democratic process and the importance of the freedom of expression?
The other question I have for your consideration is "To what extent would you support any author who so blantantly blashphemes any other religious leader?"
If your answer is steered towards the negative, then it appears that this would be tantamount to you practising contraticting standards here by inviting Patrick Jones to read his Christian blasphemy at the Assembly!
Finally, to what extent are your comments in support of Patrick Jones personal or party considerations?
As a fair-mined person, I need to have the answers to these questions rather than make uneducated presumptions about the inappropriate balance that seems to be evident here in favour of the freedom of expression over religious values.
The other question I have for your consideration is "To what extent would you support any author who so blantantly blashphemes any other religious leader?"
If your answer is steered towards the negative, then it appears that this would be tantamount to you practising contraticting standards here by inviting Patrick Jones to read his Christian blasphemy at the Assembly!
Finally, to what extent are your comments in support of Patrick Jones personal or party considerations?
As a fair-mined person, I need to have the answers to these questions rather than make uneducated presumptions about the inappropriate balance that seems to be evident here in favour of the freedom of expression over religious values.
# posted by : 8:41 PM
: 8:41 PM
Sorry what inappropriate balance? We live in a democracy not a theocracy. Religious values are important but they should not override basic human rights. Sometimes I think that the likes of Christian Voice want to bring back the Spanish Inquisition.
If you read 'Hymn' the offending Patrick Jones poem you would know that it refers to other religions too. In the same circumstances I would do the same for any artist who had had a reading effectively shouted down by a religious minority.
My commitment to these fundamental tenets of democracy is personal and principled. I think I can demonstrate that by previous comments as referred to here: http://peterblack.blogspot.com
/2008/11/another-day-another-letter.html
If you read 'Hymn' the offending Patrick Jones poem you would know that it refers to other religions too. In the same circumstances I would do the same for any artist who had had a reading effectively shouted down by a religious minority.
My commitment to these fundamental tenets of democracy is personal and principled. I think I can demonstrate that by previous comments as referred to here: http://peterblack.blogspot.com
/2008/11/another-day-another-letter.html
I deleted that last comment because it was written in haste! No I think Gary Lewis was generous to call Patrick Jones a poet at all! I don’t think he qualifies, and yes I have read some of them and find them lacking in style! I don’t question Peter’s sincerity about allowing his poetry to be read at the assembly in the name of the “freedom of expression” a much abused concept. I still maintain that the man created this incident in the name of high sales why would Stephen Green or any other devout Christian not get upset when someone sends you a poem about having sexual intercourse with you saviour. And by the way Jesus is the number 2 prophet in Islam, so you have upset them too! And please don’t bring up the “Spanish Inquisition” (because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!) Totally irrelevant to this topic (in they were after non believers not a freedom of speech issue) why not the Nazis or Communists (militant atheists to boot).
This issue is about one thing. Some obscure artist promoting his work.
This issue is about one thing. Some obscure artist promoting his work.
# posted by : 11:05 PM
: 11:05 PM
"...And please don’t bring up the “Spanish Inquisition” (because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!)..."
We don't want to bring Palin into the equation. ;-)
We don't want to bring Palin into the equation. ;-)
# posted by : 10:11 PM
: 10:11 PM
Peter, I think it's a real shame that you and Christian Voice have been suckered into a tawdry attempt to promote a book by the poet. After all, I understand from researching the events leading up to this, that there is only any incident here at all because Patrick Jones posted his poems to Christian Voice in the first place.
Either Patrick is engaged in some "art" in creating a comment on the delicate state of religious and anti-religious sentiment - in which case you have become part of an installation - or you are using your time and energy to create publicity for a poet who can't get it any other way.
It seems to me that Patrick's "freedom of speech" is in fact a deliberate attempt to create controversy by being rude - and should be supported just as much as we should support the "freedom of speech" of the drunk who harangues passing shoppers on the high street.
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Either Patrick is engaged in some "art" in creating a comment on the delicate state of religious and anti-religious sentiment - in which case you have become part of an installation - or you are using your time and energy to create publicity for a poet who can't get it any other way.
It seems to me that Patrick's "freedom of speech" is in fact a deliberate attempt to create controversy by being rude - and should be supported just as much as we should support the "freedom of speech" of the drunk who harangues passing shoppers on the high street.
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