Saturday, September 06, 2008
Dafydd Iwan again
I have blogged before here and here on the policy differences between Plaid Cymru officials and their party's ministers in Cardiff Bay. In response it has been suggested that such differences are a healthy sign of debate within the party. So far so good.
However, surely Ieuan Wyn Jones must be just a little bit embarrassed to find that his own Party President and Plaid's only MEP are prepared to publicly attack a key initiative supported by all parties and promoted by the Labour-Plaid Cymru Government and his department, to attract thousands of high quality jobs to St. Athan.
These are not ordinary party members expressing their displeasure over ideological differences. They are senior politicians who represent and speak on behalf of Plaid Cymru to the public. Plaid really do need to make up their mind. Are they a party of government or not? They cannot have it both ways.
However, surely Ieuan Wyn Jones must be just a little bit embarrassed to find that his own Party President and Plaid's only MEP are prepared to publicly attack a key initiative supported by all parties and promoted by the Labour-Plaid Cymru Government and his department, to attract thousands of high quality jobs to St. Athan.
These are not ordinary party members expressing their displeasure over ideological differences. They are senior politicians who represent and speak on behalf of Plaid Cymru to the public. Plaid really do need to make up their mind. Are they a party of government or not? They cannot have it both ways.
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From the Western Mail article, it would appear that both Welsh Nationalist President Dafydd Iwan and their MEP Jill Evans are quite proud of the actions of Saunders Lewis and two of his fellow terrorists, in comemorating the IRA style bombings of MoD property in Wales. I can ensure the readers of the Glamorgan Gazette that a letter to said publication is on its way.
Lest we forget: Saunders Lewis was a Nazi Sympathiser.
G. Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems
Lest we forget: Saunders Lewis was a Nazi Sympathiser.
G. Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems
# posted by 
: 10:57 AM
: 10:57 AM
Who is Plaid Cymru's totally ineffectual Party President? Was he the person last seen riding off with Lord Lucan on the horse Sheergar to nowhere?
G.Lewis: can you find a quote to suppport your assertion that Saunders lewis was a Nazi sympathiser. He may not have been an especially nice man, and he was certainly right wing, but other founding members of Plaid were very left wing. You'll need to do better than spin and smear.
The proof of your assertion, please, in the form of a direct quotation or reputable historical source.
And woudl that be why the Lib dems go round Cardiff saying that Plaid are the Welsh BNP? Talk about dirty politics!
The proof of your assertion, please, in the form of a direct quotation or reputable historical source.
And woudl that be why the Lib dems go round Cardiff saying that Plaid are the Welsh BNP? Talk about dirty politics!
# posted by : 1:53 PM
: 1:53 PM
G Lewis - I do hope that before you fired off your letter someone taught you a little bit more about history, specifically the differnece between "IRA style bombing" and arson?
This Saunders Lewis thing is an old chestnut used by the desperate like G. Lewis. It gets dragged out by the pathetic anti Welsh brigade with regularity. G. Lewis would be better employed attacking the gross uselessness and poor quality of the present cohort of Plaid Cymru politicians. Most of them are not fit to lick the boots of the likes of Gwynfor Evans or especially Dafydd Wigley - let alone the patriots of our glorious past. They are mostly just Lackeys to New Labour and self indulgent puppets to Old Labour. Nobody ever drags out the debauchery of Liberal Lloyd George to besmirch present day Lib Dems, because, that mirky aspect of his private life aside, Lloyd George (like Saunders Lewis) was a brilliant man in the history of our nation.
The IRA bombings of the 1970s and 1980s were in the name of Nationalism, the arson against a military installation again in the name of Nationalism that Saunders Lewis and his cohorts is no different to what the IRA were doing.
G. Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems
G. Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems
# posted by : 8:48 PM
: 8:48 PM
Dave Rodway > Are you saying that Saunders Lewis didn't have sympathies towards Hitler and Mussolini?
Think carefully before you answer, since my paternal grandparents took in refugees from England whilst my father was fighting for King and Country
Think carefully before you answer, since my paternal grandparents took in refugees from England whilst my father was fighting for King and Country
# posted by : 9:26 PM
: 9:26 PM
We have a periodic debate, here in Penarth, as to whether or not to put up a staute to Lewis (who lived here).
The response is always 'NO' because it is popularly remembered that he was one of a number of Plaid types who thought that Wales would be better off under the Nazis than under English rule. (If that sounds odd, much the same belief was held by nationalists in ireland and in the context of France by nats in britanny too.) There is a belief - whether it's true or not someone else will need to verify - that Lewis and co wrote to Hitler to seek his help.
Nationalists, eh? What larks.
The response is always 'NO' because it is popularly remembered that he was one of a number of Plaid types who thought that Wales would be better off under the Nazis than under English rule. (If that sounds odd, much the same belief was held by nationalists in ireland and in the context of France by nats in britanny too.) There is a belief - whether it's true or not someone else will need to verify - that Lewis and co wrote to Hitler to seek his help.
Nationalists, eh? What larks.
# posted by : 10:22 PM
: 10:22 PM
The accusations made here by individuals about Saunders Lewis are historically inaccurate and really rather sad. Green Man (Ioan Richard bless 'im) is man incapable of working with any party (by the way Ioan, Wigley thinks that you are a pratt, along with as almost everyone else). In terms of Plaid party members having a different line from the WAG coalition, when Lib Dems are accused of differing from their party line, you always start quoting 'geniune party democracy' Peter. You can't have it both ways.
# posted by : 11:41 PM
: 11:41 PM
Talking about "Nationalists", isn't Nelson Mandella first and foremost an African Nationalist (What did ANC stand for?) as well as him being an internationalist now. Don't see you anti Welsh guys knocking him. You Bridgend guys are pretty desperate. If you're going to bash Plaid Cymru, then criticise its present leadership for its ineffectiveness and open grovelling to Labour.
Anon 11.41pm: these are not just Plaid members they are a significant part of the party's leadership. It seems to me that it is Plaid who are trying to have things both ways.
"Anonymous" (in this debate)sounds very much like a clone of that Swansea Plaid Cymru Councillor who two years ago threw his lot in with Swansea Labour and the Tories, only to be betrayed exceedingly badly by Labour in the May 2008 elections. Plaid Cymru are totally finished now in Swansea, not because one of their group had a telephone fetish, but because of their grouping for a year in Swansea with Labour and Tories in their PLC Coalition just to get their greedy hands on extra Chair Allowance payments. Their supporters did not like that and booted them out for good. The whole point in this discussion started off with how ineffectual Plaid's President has been nationally. This is mirrored at Swansea. The word "brad" springs to mind.
A Lib Dem complaining about Plaid being divided.. oh dear. Does anybody know what today's Lib Dem position is on St Athan or anything else for that matter?
Lest we forget: G Lewis is an anagram of "Clueless"
Lest we forget: G Lewis is an anagram of "Clueless"
# posted by : 12:24 PM
: 12:24 PM
The Welsh Liberal Democrats have always been supportive of the St. Athan development. There is no division on that or on the vast majority of other policy issues, all of which can be viewed on our website. I think that these policies comprehensively debunk your absurd claim that we do not stand for anything.
Perhaps you would be better off practising your anagrams as you clearly have not grasped the art.
Perhaps you would be better off practising your anagrams as you clearly have not grasped the art.
Anon: I have thought carefully, as you put it, and will address your points.
First, my own grandfather fought for King and Country , as you put it, was a convinced socialist, and still believer in Plaid's values when he returned from war. If you're suggesting that Plaid are fascists or anything like thatbecause one of their early leaders was a right-wing action-francaise-inspired nationalist, then you're just stupid or dealing in dirty politics.
Here is why: .
Saunders Lewis expressed sympathies for Fascism (not Nazism as such - a different thing), like a lot of peopel in his epoch (he too, by the way fought for King and Country and did so with great distinction...). His interest in Fascism did not last long, and he repented publicly and soon enough (he also expressed his abhorrence of the treatment of the jews by Nazism, and wrote a very moving play about it!). Many other politicians - Liberal, Labour and especially Tory were not just pro-Fascsist but pro-Nazi for a while, and many indeed also preferred to come to an arrangement with Hitler to war. Including as it happened the Duke of Windsor, who woudl have been King.
Notable pro-Fascsist were Oswald Mosley ( Britain's own Fascist Leader who had been a LABOUR minister as well as a Tory MP)! and all sorts of conservative politicians and so called 'nobles'. Liberals were not much better.
If you want a debate on pro-fascism in WW2, on appeasement, on British anti-semitism and on prominent Nazi sympathisers in the British etsblishment, then I am happy to have it. You'd better have some more facts, and be less selective about them, than you appear to.
Think very carefully before you address the above points.
I hope this clears up the issue.
First, my own grandfather fought for King and Country , as you put it, was a convinced socialist, and still believer in Plaid's values when he returned from war. If you're suggesting that Plaid are fascists or anything like thatbecause one of their early leaders was a right-wing action-francaise-inspired nationalist, then you're just stupid or dealing in dirty politics.
Here is why: .
Saunders Lewis expressed sympathies for Fascism (not Nazism as such - a different thing), like a lot of peopel in his epoch (he too, by the way fought for King and Country and did so with great distinction...). His interest in Fascism did not last long, and he repented publicly and soon enough (he also expressed his abhorrence of the treatment of the jews by Nazism, and wrote a very moving play about it!). Many other politicians - Liberal, Labour and especially Tory were not just pro-Fascsist but pro-Nazi for a while, and many indeed also preferred to come to an arrangement with Hitler to war. Including as it happened the Duke of Windsor, who woudl have been King.
Notable pro-Fascsist were Oswald Mosley ( Britain's own Fascist Leader who had been a LABOUR minister as well as a Tory MP)! and all sorts of conservative politicians and so called 'nobles'. Liberals were not much better.
If you want a debate on pro-fascism in WW2, on appeasement, on British anti-semitism and on prominent Nazi sympathisers in the British etsblishment, then I am happy to have it. You'd better have some more facts, and be less selective about them, than you appear to.
Think very carefully before you address the above points.
I hope this clears up the issue.
# posted by : 1:33 PM
: 1:33 PM
G Lewis isn't complaining about Plaid being divided, G Lewis is complaining about substancial members supporting an act of terrorism.
Since there aren't any divisions within Plaid, all solidly behind this notion; when the next round of elections come around, can I expect Plaid literature to be written in German? (It would be nice if it was written in Welsh and not just English.)
G Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems/
Democratiade Rhyddfyrdol Penybont
Since there aren't any divisions within Plaid, all solidly behind this notion; when the next round of elections come around, can I expect Plaid literature to be written in German? (It would be nice if it was written in Welsh and not just English.)
G Lewis
Bridgend Lib Dems/
Democratiade Rhyddfyrdol Penybont
# posted by : 1:43 PM
: 1:43 PM
G Lewis belatedly adds a bilingual version to Bridgend Lib Dems to try to prove some point - and predictably spells the name of his own party wrongly.
I don't know who he or she is, but there's a global village has found its idiot. If he thinks symbolic burning of a building is terrorism, then he undoubtedly thinks Mandela (27 yrs in prison for some full-on bombing campaign) and the French Resistance were terrorists. Silly man.
Saunders Lewis is not my cup of tea but he was no Nazi either. If this is the best the Lib Dems can do, then they truly deserve the title Fib Dems..
I don't know who he or she is, but there's a global village has found its idiot. If he thinks symbolic burning of a building is terrorism, then he undoubtedly thinks Mandela (27 yrs in prison for some full-on bombing campaign) and the French Resistance were terrorists. Silly man.
Saunders Lewis is not my cup of tea but he was no Nazi either. If this is the best the Lib Dems can do, then they truly deserve the title Fib Dems..
# posted by : 2:21 PM
: 2:21 PM
Nazism is very much like Fascism, but with the added dimensions of anti-semitism and a clear German dimention. Dave Rodway - you state in your comments that Saunders Lewis had fascist leanings!
Saunders Lewis was an anti-semite, and to quote Llyw Smith:
“Anti-English prejudices have run throughout their party since its birth. Saunders Lewis, a founding member and former leader, saw the Jews and the English as enemies, while admiring Hitler and Mussolini. [Interruption.] Of course, the nationalists do not want to hear this. Of Hitler, Saunders Lewis declared:
"At once he fulfilled his promise—a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that—to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
Plaids socialist badge comes out when they travel down South!
Re:Talk about dirty politics - yep! Learnt that from Plaid's friends in the Labour Party.
Saunders Lewis was an anti-semite, and to quote Llyw Smith:
“Anti-English prejudices have run throughout their party since its birth. Saunders Lewis, a founding member and former leader, saw the Jews and the English as enemies, while admiring Hitler and Mussolini. [Interruption.] Of course, the nationalists do not want to hear this. Of Hitler, Saunders Lewis declared:
"At once he fulfilled his promise—a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that—to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
Plaids socialist badge comes out when they travel down South!
Re:Talk about dirty politics - yep! Learnt that from Plaid's friends in the Labour Party.
# posted by : 3:13 PM
: 3:13 PM
I agree entirely with Dave Rodway and he is right to distinguish between Naziism and fascism and that SL's support was for the latter rather than the former. (Although I can't say that fascism has anything to commend it either and I'm sure Dave feels the same way)
But along similar lines, if the Liberals were minded to commemorate the creation the creation of Old Age Pensions by the last Liberal Government, should they hold back on doing so because they guy whose idea it was was a Hitler cheerleader? (David Lloyd George for all those liberals whose grasp of history is so c**p)
Saunders Lewis and his colleagues acted in defence of the displacement of Welsh communities by the military. The same scheme had been abandoned in Abbotsbury because it would adversely affect a colony of swans. English swans were more important then than Welsh people (plus ca change).
David Walters
But along similar lines, if the Liberals were minded to commemorate the creation the creation of Old Age Pensions by the last Liberal Government, should they hold back on doing so because they guy whose idea it was was a Hitler cheerleader? (David Lloyd George for all those liberals whose grasp of history is so c**p)
Saunders Lewis and his colleagues acted in defence of the displacement of Welsh communities by the military. The same scheme had been abandoned in Abbotsbury because it would adversely affect a colony of swans. English swans were more important then than Welsh people (plus ca change).
David Walters
# posted by : 5:18 PM
: 5:18 PM
Sympathisers with Germany's extremely ugly past may have also included a leading figure from somewhere special in Rome. (Similarly with Ireland's violent past). Are you anti Welsh lot going to besmirch all present day sincere Christian Roman Catholics for that? Get real! This debate is not about who has an unfortunate history. This debate is about today's Plaid Cymru leadership being totally ineffectual and Labour's little lap dogs.
Perhaps we should look at the original blog:"...However, surely Ieuan Wyn Jones must be just a little bit embarrassed to find that his own Party President and Plaid's only MEP are prepared to publicly attack a key initiative supported by all parties and promoted by the Labour-Plaid Cymru Government and his department, to attract thousands of high quality jobs to St. Athan..."
How easily the Nationalist have become distracted and wound up when you mention Saunders Lewis and his leaning.
I wouldn't have mentioned it except for the Western Mail article saying that:
"Mr Iwan was backed in his comments by Euro-MP Jill Evans.
On Monday, the pair will speak at an event commemorating the 1936 burning of the RAF bombing school at Penyberth, Gwynedd, by three early Plaid activists, including its then president Saunders Lewis."
This pair are COMMEMORATING the BURNING of the RAF BOMBING SCHOOL!!!
It is Terrorism!!!!
Why can't you wooly backs get this into your thick skulls?
G Lewis
How easily the Nationalist have become distracted and wound up when you mention Saunders Lewis and his leaning.
I wouldn't have mentioned it except for the Western Mail article saying that:
"Mr Iwan was backed in his comments by Euro-MP Jill Evans.
On Monday, the pair will speak at an event commemorating the 1936 burning of the RAF bombing school at Penyberth, Gwynedd, by three early Plaid activists, including its then president Saunders Lewis."
This pair are COMMEMORATING the BURNING of the RAF BOMBING SCHOOL!!!
It is Terrorism!!!!
Why can't you wooly backs get this into your thick skulls?
G Lewis
# posted by : 6:12 PM
: 6:12 PM
G lewis is an utter idiot why waste time arguing with him? Plaid policy has always been support for peaceful means to secure self government and have always rejected the "armed struggle". The IRA aimed to kill people for their cause the people whoi set fire to the raf base made certain no person suffered an injury
Plaid debated the issue of St athans a while back. There are serious issues about the development. First of all the privatisation of defence training is a nightmare. Secondly the issue of how many jobs will local people get etc
I am not on the pacifist wing of Plaid anymore than I wa son the pacifist wing of the liberals and lib dems before I "saw the light".
Our policy is to allow those who opposed the development to express their views withour fear of party discipline. The majority offer cautious support for the development.
Plaid debated the issue of St athans a while back. There are serious issues about the development. First of all the privatisation of defence training is a nightmare. Secondly the issue of how many jobs will local people get etc
I am not on the pacifist wing of Plaid anymore than I wa son the pacifist wing of the liberals and lib dems before I "saw the light".
Our policy is to allow those who opposed the development to express their views withour fear of party discipline. The majority offer cautious support for the development.
Quick Question: Green Man, if you are Ioan Richards, as suggested in 11:41 posting, how can you be a political party of just one?
Looking at the Electorial Commission's website, you are both the Leader and the Campaigns Officer of your party, I take it your wife or sister is the Nominating Officer.
People's Representative, I think not, more the Richard's household representative.
Looking at the Electorial Commission's website, you are both the Leader and the Campaigns Officer of your party, I take it your wife or sister is the Nominating Officer.
People's Representative, I think not, more the Richard's household representative.
# posted by : 7:09 PM
: 7:09 PM
I think that when people quote Llew Smith as their authority on something they're in deeply dodgy territory. One of the best-known anti-Welsh politicians around, who would consider Raymond Williams, Britain's greatest home-grown socialist thinker, as basically the same political hue as Mussolini because he was a member of Plaid.
Besides, you woudl have a seriously hard time pretending that Saundesr Lewis was the only one in the early 1930s to believe in a Jewish financial conspiracy - what is on record is that what happened to the Jews under Hitler horrified him (as it did many - but not all - of the cross-party anti-semites), and that he is on record as saying he was wrong.
Moreover: you haven;t dealt with the issue of widespread cross-party pro-fascism in the UK political establishment, or the substantive difference between Nazism and Fascism.
The genuine major-league and unrepentant wartime Nazi was Oswald Mosley, who was at one time both a Labour minister and a Tory MP. I hope you will post your opinion son the implicatiosn that has for Tory and Labour policy...
and while you;re at it, you could discuss the support given by very prominent Liberal, Labour and Tory politicians to the eugenics moveemnt and their terrifying implications. I can even recommend a book, and some article on it British fascism. You'll come away from them thinking that Saunders Lewis was small fry, repentant, and of a wholly different ilk.
You cannot be taken seriously, which is why perhaps you don;t post under your own name.
Besides, you woudl have a seriously hard time pretending that Saundesr Lewis was the only one in the early 1930s to believe in a Jewish financial conspiracy - what is on record is that what happened to the Jews under Hitler horrified him (as it did many - but not all - of the cross-party anti-semites), and that he is on record as saying he was wrong.
Moreover: you haven;t dealt with the issue of widespread cross-party pro-fascism in the UK political establishment, or the substantive difference between Nazism and Fascism.
The genuine major-league and unrepentant wartime Nazi was Oswald Mosley, who was at one time both a Labour minister and a Tory MP. I hope you will post your opinion son the implicatiosn that has for Tory and Labour policy...
and while you;re at it, you could discuss the support given by very prominent Liberal, Labour and Tory politicians to the eugenics moveemnt and their terrifying implications. I can even recommend a book, and some article on it British fascism. You'll come away from them thinking that Saunders Lewis was small fry, repentant, and of a wholly different ilk.
You cannot be taken seriously, which is why perhaps you don;t post under your own name.
# posted by : 7:16 PM
: 7:16 PM
A lot of politicians had the wool pulled over their eyes by Hitler in the 1930s but none of them were anti-semites. Relativity may be important here but that does not make Saunders Lewis' views defensible.
I am also unsure what the fine distinction is in saying that he was pro-fascist rather than pro-nazi. I accept that there was a difference but neither are acceptable positions to take.
All of this is of course history and no party can be tarred with the brush of the views of their past leaders nor would I seek to do that.
I believe that the reason Saunders Lewis stands out more than the others was because of his importance in helping to formulate Plaid Cymru's ideology. Clearly that party has moved on but it does seem bizarre that modern day nationalists would seek to highlight some of his less auspicious feats.
In the meantime can we please cool the personal abuse? Thank you.
I am also unsure what the fine distinction is in saying that he was pro-fascist rather than pro-nazi. I accept that there was a difference but neither are acceptable positions to take.
All of this is of course history and no party can be tarred with the brush of the views of their past leaders nor would I seek to do that.
I believe that the reason Saunders Lewis stands out more than the others was because of his importance in helping to formulate Plaid Cymru's ideology. Clearly that party has moved on but it does seem bizarre that modern day nationalists would seek to highlight some of his less auspicious feats.
In the meantime can we please cool the personal abuse? Thank you.
"Anonymous" is getting very, very tetchy and throwing out irate distractions. Does "Anonymous" represent anyone other than his faceless petty self? Will he answer - how effective is Dafydd Iwan as a Plaid Cymru Party Leader? Apart from plagiarising old Irish songs into Welsh, what's he done in recent years of any serious political impact? The answer must be "Nothing, zero, zilch!"
I think that the story that Saunders Lewis was pro nazi is a bit of ridiculous hyperbole! There was a time that many in Britain (including Winston Churchill) said nice things about Mussolini till they understood the true nature of his regime (like Bernard Shaw about Stalin etc). I think that SL had more in common with Chesterton and Belloc who abhorred Nazism.
# posted by : 12:49 AM
: 12:49 AM
Have you sat and watched water run steadily out of a leaking bucket? It forms a mini whirlpool vortex as it disappears down the hole just like waste water down the plug hole. What's the point of asking this? Well Plaid Cymru have re-elected Dafydd Iwan as their President. He has as President never brought out any new initiative; never given an inspirational speech to non members (us the public); he has not convened any public rallies; in fact apart from his sixties song fans he is a total non entity. This is present day politics we are talking about here, not ghosts from eighty years ago as to who then supported ugly politics. We are talking about a key figure in a party that should be playing a key role in Welsh politics not letting it run out down the plug hole. What do we get? Silence from Dafydd Iwan, and submission to Labour from the rest of the clique at Cardiff Bay, and anonymous school boy jibes from some poor totally lost little soul in Swansea.
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