Tuesday, August 05, 2008
The case for Independence
Plaid Cymru AM, Helen Mary Jones has an article in this morning's Western Mail arguing the case for Welsh independence. Under the heading 'Independent Wales is our goal for a thriving future', Helen Mary doesn't so much present an argument as a rhetorical plea to national pride.
The sentence that stands out for me is where she states that 'strengthening our constitution is the key to delivering social justice for our citizens.' Actually, that is not the case. If we want to deliver social justice then we need to strengthen our economy and invest in education and training, both considerably weak areas in the delivery of the One Wales agreement.
In the news report Labour MP for Rhondda, Chris Bryant touches on precisely this point when he says: “Helen Mary Jones is clearly completely out of touch. Most ordinary families are worrying about the cost of fuel and food, and she is worrying about an abstract issue like independence for Wales.
“It’s not just politically daft, it would be economic suicide for Wales. Who would pay for the Welsh NHS? Who would pay for our Welsh schools?”
It may well be the case that in time Wales could stand on its own feet economically but in the short to medium term it would be very hard indeed. One of the reasons for that is the Welsh economy's over-reliance on the public sector and our failure to promote innovation and entrepreneurship. This means that we would be starting off as an independent state with a substantial public sector funding deficit. Things would be worse still if key elements of Plaid Cymru get their way and kick out all the military bases.
Nevertheless, I welcome Plaid Cymru's Independence Initiative. It offers some clear differentiation between them and the other parties that may well appeal to their core vote but which will be seen as a major distraction by the vast majority of the electorate.
This is not a case of 'talking our country or our people down' as Helen Mary suggests. Rather it is ensuring that we do not embark on a reckless course of action based upon sentiment and emotional ideology that will leave Wales worse off. The other parties have the best interests of Wales at their heart just as much as the nationalists. The difference is that we are not prepared to put the country's future at risk through irresponsible experiments.
The sentence that stands out for me is where she states that 'strengthening our constitution is the key to delivering social justice for our citizens.' Actually, that is not the case. If we want to deliver social justice then we need to strengthen our economy and invest in education and training, both considerably weak areas in the delivery of the One Wales agreement.
In the news report Labour MP for Rhondda, Chris Bryant touches on precisely this point when he says: “Helen Mary Jones is clearly completely out of touch. Most ordinary families are worrying about the cost of fuel and food, and she is worrying about an abstract issue like independence for Wales.
“It’s not just politically daft, it would be economic suicide for Wales. Who would pay for the Welsh NHS? Who would pay for our Welsh schools?”
It may well be the case that in time Wales could stand on its own feet economically but in the short to medium term it would be very hard indeed. One of the reasons for that is the Welsh economy's over-reliance on the public sector and our failure to promote innovation and entrepreneurship. This means that we would be starting off as an independent state with a substantial public sector funding deficit. Things would be worse still if key elements of Plaid Cymru get their way and kick out all the military bases.
Nevertheless, I welcome Plaid Cymru's Independence Initiative. It offers some clear differentiation between them and the other parties that may well appeal to their core vote but which will be seen as a major distraction by the vast majority of the electorate.
This is not a case of 'talking our country or our people down' as Helen Mary suggests. Rather it is ensuring that we do not embark on a reckless course of action based upon sentiment and emotional ideology that will leave Wales worse off. The other parties have the best interests of Wales at their heart just as much as the nationalists. The difference is that we are not prepared to put the country's future at risk through irresponsible experiments.
Comments:
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"The other parties have the best interests of Wales at their heart just as much as the nationalists."
Very true; just very unfortunate that when it comes to the Assembly Elections, people vote for the Welsh Nationalists because its for the Welsh Assembly Elections.
BTW I don't think it's just Helen Mary Jones who has lost touch with the electorate in Plaid Cymru and Labour.
Very true; just very unfortunate that when it comes to the Assembly Elections, people vote for the Welsh Nationalists because its for the Welsh Assembly Elections.
BTW I don't think it's just Helen Mary Jones who has lost touch with the electorate in Plaid Cymru and Labour.
# posted by 
: 1:05 PM
: 1:05 PM
“ Who would pay for the Welsh NHS? Who would pay for our Welsh schools?” The grotesque toadying late but very much unlamented lord tonypandy used to say much the same thing when arguing against ANY form of devolution for wales!
Labour anti-devolutionists like bryant speak as if no one in wales pays ANY taxes!
Well i cannot speak for bryant but according to my monthly pay check i certainly pay taxes, as do many hundreds of thousands of workers in wales! (many of these taxpayers being amongst the lowest paid thanks to bryant's own prime minister of course!!!)
Leigh,
swansea.
Labour anti-devolutionists like bryant speak as if no one in wales pays ANY taxes!
Well i cannot speak for bryant but according to my monthly pay check i certainly pay taxes, as do many hundreds of thousands of workers in wales! (many of these taxpayers being amongst the lowest paid thanks to bryant's own prime minister of course!!!)
Leigh,
swansea.
# posted by : 6:38 PM
: 6:38 PM
Lets hope west Wales and valleys will have benefited from the EU convergence by 2013.
The welsh labour govt just do not have the spirit for entrepreneurship or the know how. The quango Business eye says it all. Even if its name has been changed.
good point about the public sector. All far too much in Wales. Eating away at public resources. The economy is the single most important thing for Wales in the next decade.
If we get it right we could be a boom nation. If not......
The welsh labour govt just do not have the spirit for entrepreneurship or the know how. The quango Business eye says it all. Even if its name has been changed.
good point about the public sector. All far too much in Wales. Eating away at public resources. The economy is the single most important thing for Wales in the next decade.
If we get it right we could be a boom nation. If not......
Better to die standing than live kneeling - Not that Wales would die of course! More a choice between live on our own two feet or continue a slow death on our knees, scrabbling for the crumbs of England's table. Independence would be the best thing that ever happened to this nation. It wouldn't solve all of our problems but it would certainly go a long way to help - having people who actually care about Wales, are accountable to Wales making policy - not some London obsessed establishment protecting their own. I don't hear many people in Eire clamouring for a return to the 'British' fold.
# posted by : 8:30 PM
: 8:30 PM
What a load of tosh. Just in case you missed it Wales is being run by a democratically elected Assembly made up of people who care about Wales, accountable to Wales and with a Welsh policy agenda. As we become a full Parliament then we will have more opportunity to go our own way within a Federal, devolved UK. You will also be aware that Eire spent the first 60 years or so of its existence with severe economic problems.
I would say the only one peddling emotional, irresponsible rhetoric here is you, Mr. Black.
As for the arguments, lets start with our resources, shall we? We export electricity, water and now gas. In South Wales, we pay the highest electricity fees in the UK because North Wales (which is a net exporter of electricity) serves Merseyside and the North West of England. Many families are suffering because we have a grid which is designed to serve the needs of England, and not Wales.
We can also do as other nations do in Europe and charge Transit fees for the export of gas to England and Europe. Very profitable.
The former DTI is also now selling licenses for Coal Bed Methane exploration across the Valleys, because we are sitting on one of the biggest onshore gas resources in Western Europe. An independent welsh government would tax these resources appropriately and ensure that this industry develops in an ecologically and socially responsible manner.
Oh, and Labour is gearing up to play the Coal Card during the next election, because apparently our coal is now becoming attractive again.
And if our coal resources are going to be exploited again, maybe London would like to inform us if the old custom of "dual pricing" will be revived, whereby welsh coal producers were forced to sell their coal on the cheap to English industry, rather than at a better rate on the international markets.
It's time we had full control of our resources, and the best way to do that is full independence.
As for the arguments, lets start with our resources, shall we? We export electricity, water and now gas. In South Wales, we pay the highest electricity fees in the UK because North Wales (which is a net exporter of electricity) serves Merseyside and the North West of England. Many families are suffering because we have a grid which is designed to serve the needs of England, and not Wales.
We can also do as other nations do in Europe and charge Transit fees for the export of gas to England and Europe. Very profitable.
The former DTI is also now selling licenses for Coal Bed Methane exploration across the Valleys, because we are sitting on one of the biggest onshore gas resources in Western Europe. An independent welsh government would tax these resources appropriately and ensure that this industry develops in an ecologically and socially responsible manner.
Oh, and Labour is gearing up to play the Coal Card during the next election, because apparently our coal is now becoming attractive again.
And if our coal resources are going to be exploited again, maybe London would like to inform us if the old custom of "dual pricing" will be revived, whereby welsh coal producers were forced to sell their coal on the cheap to English industry, rather than at a better rate on the international markets.
It's time we had full control of our resources, and the best way to do that is full independence.
It sounds good Draig but it hardly addd up to an economic strategy. Let us see the costings on Plaid's independence proposals to prove that Wales really can go it alone. There is nothing irresponsible about asking hard questions.
There is nothing irresponsible about asking hard questions.
Very true Peter, I look forward to the day when you actually ask one.
Seeing as how you criticse Helen Mary Jones for not having calculated costings behind her when she says independece would benefit Wales, i assume that you can provide us with your sums in declaring that it will "leave Wales worst off".
Im yet to decide on the Independence question myself, but even I can see that, while no-one has ever provided a proper costing either way, the pro-independence lot have shown me much more than the Unionist, who tend to just spout Bryant-esque "economical suicide".
Very true Peter, I look forward to the day when you actually ask one.
Seeing as how you criticse Helen Mary Jones for not having calculated costings behind her when she says independece would benefit Wales, i assume that you can provide us with your sums in declaring that it will "leave Wales worst off".
Im yet to decide on the Independence question myself, but even I can see that, while no-one has ever provided a proper costing either way, the pro-independence lot have shown me much more than the Unionist, who tend to just spout Bryant-esque "economical suicide".
Helen Mary Jones uses Iceland to justify the idea of an independent Wales. Unfortunately for her the Icelandic economy is in an awful mess with inflation running at close to 9% and interest rates at 15.5%. As you rightly say Peter it really is all tosh. In any case independence isn't about economics. It's about separation and the belief that you are some how different from other people. The split up of the Austro-Hungarian empire made no economic sense whatsoever but try telling that to Czech Nationalists in 1918.What is wrong with Helen Mary Jones's argument is the assumption that an independent Wales will automatically be 'prosperous'. The simple fact is that no one knows for certain what will happen although the present evidence suggests that given the structure of the Welsh economy Wales would struggle. The wheeze of lower corporation tax might have worked for Ireland but it doesn't mean that it will work for Wales. It will interesting to see how the Assembly balances its budget over the next few years as public expenditure at a UK level slows down. Unfortunately the decline of the Labour party and events in Scotland have led certain nationalists to get a little carried away. As a recent article by Robert Hazell in the Guardian shows,independence for Scotland isn't asimple matter. For Wales it is even more complicated. All of this can be seen as a mere academic exercise if it wasn't for the fact that it makes winning a'yes' vote in any future referendum even harder.
# posted by : 9:14 AM
: 9:14 AM
Regarding JJ's comments "...It's about separation and the belief that you are some how different from other people." One of my interests is geneology, and it transpires that just going back a few generations, my family are from Essex (Witham), Surry (Shalford, Northampton in addition to Cwmafan, Newport and Pembroke, in fact there's more English in me than Welsh, so I don't really see myself as different from the English, because I am "mostly English"
In addition to JJ's comment, which it loaths me to say I agree with him, nationalism is a very dangerous thing!
In addition to JJ's comment, which it loaths me to say I agree with him, nationalism is a very dangerous thing!
# posted by : 6:17 PM
: 6:17 PM
I love these posters who arrogate the right to themselves to play judge, jury and executioner on us "nationalists". At the end of the day, we're all nationalists.
If you believe in "Welshness" and Welsh Independence, you're a welsh nationalist. If you believe in "Britishness" and a British Nation-State, you are a British nationalist.
You can see this from the fact that Mr. Black is happy to use quotes from Labourites like Chris Bryant (who is of course, an ex-Tory - spot the difference!)to bash Plaid, and people like Jeff Jones pop up on this blog to have a go too. Whether you're Labour or Lib dem you are a British Nationalist, because you believe in Britain and Britishness.
we're being honest about our nationalism. Isn't it about time the Brit Nats were a little more honest about their ideology too?
If you believe in "Welshness" and Welsh Independence, you're a welsh nationalist. If you believe in "Britishness" and a British Nation-State, you are a British nationalist.
You can see this from the fact that Mr. Black is happy to use quotes from Labourites like Chris Bryant (who is of course, an ex-Tory - spot the difference!)to bash Plaid, and people like Jeff Jones pop up on this blog to have a go too. Whether you're Labour or Lib dem you are a British Nationalist, because you believe in Britain and Britishness.
we're being honest about our nationalism. Isn't it about time the Brit Nats were a little more honest about their ideology too?
Actually by that definition I am not a nationalist at all. I do not necessarily believe in promoting Britishness or Britain. I am a European and an internationalist. I object to nationalism in all its forms. I object to Plaid's vision on practical grounds and because I believe that it will disadvantage the people of Wales.
Like most socialist I am not a nationalist. I disagree profoundly with the Foreign policy of the present government. Like my former MP Walter Padley I see myself as a European who believes in devolution. The irrelevant nonsense spouted by Helen Mary Jones is a real distraction from the real issues that should concern all politicians who live in Wales. At this rate Plaid are in for a rude shock if and when any referendum is held.
# posted by : 10:11 PM
: 10:11 PM
Inter-nationalism implies an inter-relationship between nations. The logic is implied in the word. There is nothing in Welsh nationalism that implies that there should be no relationship with other nations.
It's just that many of us see a life that isn't filtered through the lens of England, which is, after all, a tiny part of the wider world.
As to disadvantaging the people of Wales, the benefits are pretty clear. We have slipped down the GDP league in the last 10 years, and now face being dragged into recession by the incompetence of the UK government. Our manufacturing base is being gradually dismantled, and replaced with low-wage Mcjobs. If Wales is over-dependent on the public sector, it's because of the policies of the British government, and the complicity in the destruction of our traditional industries.
Meanwhile the British State is becoming increasingly authoritarian, our civil liberties gradually eroded in the name of a spurious "security". To restore them, we need to opt out of Britain, and become true citizens in a Welsh Republic.
It's just that many of us see a life that isn't filtered through the lens of England, which is, after all, a tiny part of the wider world.
As to disadvantaging the people of Wales, the benefits are pretty clear. We have slipped down the GDP league in the last 10 years, and now face being dragged into recession by the incompetence of the UK government. Our manufacturing base is being gradually dismantled, and replaced with low-wage Mcjobs. If Wales is over-dependent on the public sector, it's because of the policies of the British government, and the complicity in the destruction of our traditional industries.
Meanwhile the British State is becoming increasingly authoritarian, our civil liberties gradually eroded in the name of a spurious "security". To restore them, we need to opt out of Britain, and become true citizens in a Welsh Republic.
Regarding "Draig" comments, I am not a nationalist, never have been a nationalist and no intention of becoming a nationalist. In addition I am not a British Nationalist, although I wouldn't put it passed Plaid Cymru joining up with the BNP, it seems they will get into bed with anyone!
I, like Peter beleive in Europe, I would introduce the Euro, although we should have gone into the Eurozone when the Euro was around 1.80 euro = £1 rather than the 1.20 level it is at the moment, which would be good for Wales, Tourism and Industry. I am also concerned about the state of the planet, our biodiversity, and global warming, perhaps this make me a Internationalist I don't know.
One final thing for Plaid to remember, although the literature I had from Plaid Cymru during the May Council Elections was just in English, no Welsh on it at all, if Saunders Lewis had his way, we wouldn't all be speaking Welsh, the national language of Wales would be German!
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I, like Peter beleive in Europe, I would introduce the Euro, although we should have gone into the Eurozone when the Euro was around 1.80 euro = £1 rather than the 1.20 level it is at the moment, which would be good for Wales, Tourism and Industry. I am also concerned about the state of the planet, our biodiversity, and global warming, perhaps this make me a Internationalist I don't know.
One final thing for Plaid to remember, although the literature I had from Plaid Cymru during the May Council Elections was just in English, no Welsh on it at all, if Saunders Lewis had his way, we wouldn't all be speaking Welsh, the national language of Wales would be German!
# posted by : 9:43 AM
: 9:43 AM<< Home
