Tuesday, August 07, 2007
On David Owen
An exceptional interview with Denis Healey in Saturday's Guardian, made all the sweeter by this classic summing up of Dr. David Owen:
"When he was born all the good fairies gave him every virtue: 'You'll be beautiful, you'll be intelligent, you'll have charm and charisma.' And the bad fairy came along and tapped him on the shoulder and said, 'But you'll be a shit.' That was his trouble."
Hat Tip to Political Hack and Bob Piper
"When he was born all the good fairies gave him every virtue: 'You'll be beautiful, you'll be intelligent, you'll have charm and charisma.' And the bad fairy came along and tapped him on the shoulder and said, 'But you'll be a shit.' That was his trouble."
Hat Tip to Political Hack and Bob Piper
Comments:
<< Home
Hang on Peter, isn't this the same David Owen who gave the Liberals their first ever real chance of power, and when the whole thing petered out helped transform the vitality and votes of the SDP in to a wider-based, stronger, and bigger Liberal Democrat party? [The Liberal from the original - the Democrat: the clear continuing imprint on the former Lib party.]
Like him or loathe him - you and the rest of the Lib-Dems are the inheritors of what David Owen and his Limehouse gang-of-four did for you.
What it did for the rest of us in Wales was to split the UK Labour vote and usher in Thatcher and the most devastating decade in Welsh industrial history.
See your posting below. One of the main reasons why we are starting from a much lower economic base - and still playing catch-up.
If he was such a s..t your party shouldn't have got in to bed with him. That unholy coupling let loose
forces which the decent centre-left has never recovered from [because it also ushered in Blairism - the progeny of Thatcherism].
Like him or loathe him - you and the rest of the Lib-Dems are the inheritors of what David Owen and his Limehouse gang-of-four did for you.
What it did for the rest of us in Wales was to split the UK Labour vote and usher in Thatcher and the most devastating decade in Welsh industrial history.
See your posting below. One of the main reasons why we are starting from a much lower economic base - and still playing catch-up.
If he was such a s..t your party shouldn't have got in to bed with him. That unholy coupling let loose
forces which the decent centre-left has never recovered from [because it also ushered in Blairism - the progeny of Thatcherism].
Were there bad fairies around at the birth of some of the Wales Assembly Government members? If so, who? You shouldn't make fun of Fairies because most of WAG believe in them - their Renewable Energy Policies are proof of that!
Cleckandra, did you live in some parallel universe throughout the 1980s? Firstly, the SDP were led by Roy Jenkins when we achieved our best ever result as an Alliance in 1983. Even then it was the Liberals who outperformed the SDP in terms of seats won and it was our political base that sustained them. The merged party has effectively become the Liberal Party plus, not the SDP mark II as you imply. We have taken the best parts of their constitution and their policy making process but otherwise there is little similarity with the Owenite SDP.
Thatcher of course came to power in 1979, before the SDP were formed. She consolidated her position as a result of the Falklands and Labour's own suicidal actions, not least their 1983 manifesto. You cannot blame the SDP for Thatcher and certainly not the Alliance.
We did not get into bed with Owen we went into Alliance with a party he eventually became leader of. He split the Labour Party, destroyed the Alliance and in the end even took his own party into oblivion. Don't try and blame the Liberal Democrats for David Owen, we are glad he never joined us.
Thatcher of course came to power in 1979, before the SDP were formed. She consolidated her position as a result of the Falklands and Labour's own suicidal actions, not least their 1983 manifesto. You cannot blame the SDP for Thatcher and certainly not the Alliance.
We did not get into bed with Owen we went into Alliance with a party he eventually became leader of. He split the Labour Party, destroyed the Alliance and in the end even took his own party into oblivion. Don't try and blame the Liberal Democrats for David Owen, we are glad he never joined us.
The driving force behind the creation of the SDP was David Owen. He lived in the river-front Limehouse area of London's docklands and was the prime mover and force behind the SDP.
Tha Gang of Four met at his home. They were pictured outside when they formed the SDP and declared their Limehouse Declaration. Roy Jenkins was the more acceptable, and experienced face in front of the SDP David Owen was the force behind it.
You said "We achieved our best ever result as an Alliance in 1983". You make my point for me. Thus splitting the anti-Tory vote and handing power to Thatcher.
"It was our political base that sustained them. The merged party has effectively become the Liberal Party plus". I will leave it to what's left of the SDP lot to argue that one.
"Thatcher ...consolidated her position as a result of the Falklands and Labour's own suicidal actions, not least their 1983 manifesto" ... Labour were on a death wish, but the biggest factor from 1983 on was the way the SDP and Lib Dems handed power by taking advantage of those splits. The devastation that followed in Wales everyone remembers.
"We did not get into bed with Owen" - metaphorically speaking. The reality is too much to contemplate.
"He split the Labour Party" ... and the anti-Tory vote.
"Destroyed the Alliance and in the end even took his own party into oblivion". True.
"Don't try and blame the Liberal Democrats for David Owen, we are glad he never joined us" - I'm not suprised but if he was such a shit (and all those around him could see it and the damage Thatcher was doing in Wales, and the fact that a split anti-Tory vote was allowing that to happen)why did the Liberals form an alliance with such a man, ushering in so much damage?
Tha Gang of Four met at his home. They were pictured outside when they formed the SDP and declared their Limehouse Declaration. Roy Jenkins was the more acceptable, and experienced face in front of the SDP David Owen was the force behind it.
You said "We achieved our best ever result as an Alliance in 1983". You make my point for me. Thus splitting the anti-Tory vote and handing power to Thatcher.
"It was our political base that sustained them. The merged party has effectively become the Liberal Party plus". I will leave it to what's left of the SDP lot to argue that one.
"Thatcher ...consolidated her position as a result of the Falklands and Labour's own suicidal actions, not least their 1983 manifesto" ... Labour were on a death wish, but the biggest factor from 1983 on was the way the SDP and Lib Dems handed power by taking advantage of those splits. The devastation that followed in Wales everyone remembers.
"We did not get into bed with Owen" - metaphorically speaking. The reality is too much to contemplate.
"He split the Labour Party" ... and the anti-Tory vote.
"Destroyed the Alliance and in the end even took his own party into oblivion". True.
"Don't try and blame the Liberal Democrats for David Owen, we are glad he never joined us" - I'm not suprised but if he was such a shit (and all those around him could see it and the damage Thatcher was doing in Wales, and the fact that a split anti-Tory vote was allowing that to happen)why did the Liberals form an alliance with such a man, ushering in so much damage?
Sorry I cannot let you get away with that re-writing of history. The driving force behind the creation of the SDP was Roy Jenkins with the encouragement of David Steel. They met at Limehouse it is true but at that stage Owen was no more prominent than any other member of the gang of four and was in fact overshadowed by Jenkins and Shirley Williams.
The result in 1983 was as the result of the unelectability of Labour. There is no way that we split the anti-Tory vote, in fact the Alliance took seats off the Tories. Dont blame us for Labour's failings.
I dont accept your two-party analysis of British politics. Thatcher succeeded because she won popular support for what she believed in. The devastation that was wreaked on Welsh industry as a result was her responsibility alone.
Believe it or not people do vote for positive reasons as well. There was never a big enough anti-Tory vote to depose Thatcher were it mattered - the South East and the Midlands.
As far as I was concerned we should never had had any dealings with Owen anyway. But we were locked into the Alliance by the time he succeeded Jenkins in 1983. The Alliance was already there.
The result in 1983 was as the result of the unelectability of Labour. There is no way that we split the anti-Tory vote, in fact the Alliance took seats off the Tories. Dont blame us for Labour's failings.
I dont accept your two-party analysis of British politics. Thatcher succeeded because she won popular support for what she believed in. The devastation that was wreaked on Welsh industry as a result was her responsibility alone.
Believe it or not people do vote for positive reasons as well. There was never a big enough anti-Tory vote to depose Thatcher were it mattered - the South East and the Midlands.
As far as I was concerned we should never had had any dealings with Owen anyway. But we were locked into the Alliance by the time he succeeded Jenkins in 1983. The Alliance was already there.
what nonsense that the Alliance was driven by Owen, or that the SDP helped the old Liberal Party (of blessed memory, and much missed!) along.
The disaster for progressive politics in Britain was that Labour didn't roll over and die of shame, as it should have done after the 83 election. Perhaps it will finally do so soon - Labour is by its very nature either socialist, in which case it (and then usually the country, if it is in government) is bankrupt, or it is pointless.
Oh, and let's nail another myth of the 80s, shall we? As I remember, Thatcher never got much above 44% of the popular vote - it was the UK's undemocratic voting system that gave her her majority, full stop. And has Labour done anything to prevent that happening again?
The disaster for progressive politics in Britain was that Labour didn't roll over and die of shame, as it should have done after the 83 election. Perhaps it will finally do so soon - Labour is by its very nature either socialist, in which case it (and then usually the country, if it is in government) is bankrupt, or it is pointless.
Oh, and let's nail another myth of the 80s, shall we? As I remember, Thatcher never got much above 44% of the popular vote - it was the UK's undemocratic voting system that gave her her majority, full stop. And has Labour done anything to prevent that happening again?
# posted by 
: 9:36 PM
: 9:36 PM
I agree. Not for nothing did Kaufman describe Labour's 1983 maniffesto as "the longest suicide note in history". Thatcher would have won in 1983 even if it were literally a two horse race.
I don't think that Owen or Jenkins was reallly more signifcant than the other.
When Jenkins was running for some post within the Labour party one of his supporters approached a group of northern English delegates
inviting their support for Jenkins. Back came the reply "No lad. We're all Labour here!
Owen ended up (in 1992) advising people to vote Tory.
Dennis Healy says it all about David Owen though! Love it!
I don't think that Owen or Jenkins was reallly more signifcant than the other.
When Jenkins was running for some post within the Labour party one of his supporters approached a group of northern English delegates
inviting their support for Jenkins. Back came the reply "No lad. We're all Labour here!
Owen ended up (in 1992) advising people to vote Tory.
Dennis Healy says it all about David Owen though! Love it!
# posted by : 10:22 PM
: 10:22 PM
I think Peter is being slightly disingenuous in blaming the collapse of the Traitors/Sandalwearers Alliance on David Owen alone.
“The driving force behind the creation of the SDP was Roy Jenkins with the encouragement of David Steel. They met at Limehouse it is true but at that stage Owen was no more prominent than any other member of the gang of four and was in fact overshadowed by Jenkins and Shirley Williams.” Owen was the ex-Foreign Secretary. He was clearly more senior than Williams, who along with Jenkins wasn’t an MP at all at the time of Limehouse. That said, they were, (along with Bill ‘the other one’ Rogers) a collective. Arguments about Jenkins or Owen’s contributions can’t ignore the different political positions both men were in. Jenkins was looking for a vehicle to propel himself back into frontline politics. Owen, initially, wanted to bring the Labour Party back to it’s senses.
“The result in 1983 was as the result of the unelectability of Labour. There is no way that we split the anti-Tory vote, in fact the Alliance took seats off the Tories. Dont blame us for Labour's failings.” It’s blindingly obvious that the Alliance split the anti-Tory vote. Certainly it is true that Labour was in a mess (not unrelated to the defection of so many centrists, who previously acted as ballast against the loony left) and would probably have lost anyway, but the Alliance’s whole aim was to challenge and displace Labour, an effort whose side effect was to significantly increase the majorities Mrs Thatcher enjoyed in ’83 and ’87. Psephologists can debate the scale of the ‘SDP effect’, but no reputable ones that I am aware of deny it existed.
Thanks for drawing attention to the Healey article though Peter. I might consider writing something further on the way the SDP split impacted in Wales.
“The driving force behind the creation of the SDP was Roy Jenkins with the encouragement of David Steel. They met at Limehouse it is true but at that stage Owen was no more prominent than any other member of the gang of four and was in fact overshadowed by Jenkins and Shirley Williams.” Owen was the ex-Foreign Secretary. He was clearly more senior than Williams, who along with Jenkins wasn’t an MP at all at the time of Limehouse. That said, they were, (along with Bill ‘the other one’ Rogers) a collective. Arguments about Jenkins or Owen’s contributions can’t ignore the different political positions both men were in. Jenkins was looking for a vehicle to propel himself back into frontline politics. Owen, initially, wanted to bring the Labour Party back to it’s senses.
“The result in 1983 was as the result of the unelectability of Labour. There is no way that we split the anti-Tory vote, in fact the Alliance took seats off the Tories. Dont blame us for Labour's failings.” It’s blindingly obvious that the Alliance split the anti-Tory vote. Certainly it is true that Labour was in a mess (not unrelated to the defection of so many centrists, who previously acted as ballast against the loony left) and would probably have lost anyway, but the Alliance’s whole aim was to challenge and displace Labour, an effort whose side effect was to significantly increase the majorities Mrs Thatcher enjoyed in ’83 and ’87. Psephologists can debate the scale of the ‘SDP effect’, but no reputable ones that I am aware of deny it existed.
Thanks for drawing attention to the Healey article though Peter. I might consider writing something further on the way the SDP split impacted in Wales.
blimey Spin, talk about being in denial!
Once again, Labour lost in 79, 83 and 87 because it was unelectable. It couldn't get enough votes to win because it didn't deserve them, not because those votes were 'split'.
By the way, the folk you call, variously, 'centrists', 'traitors','ballast against the loony left' and 'sandalwearers' fled from Labour because it was in the grip of some very nasty elements indeed. They knew too that it was essential to defeat Thatcher and or that to happen it was first necessary for Labour to die.
The Liberals behaved entirely responsibly at that time; they worked with the SDP - some of whom they liked, by the way - because it was so essential that Thatcher went. Labour was unfit for office and anyway unable to enter it. Labour continued to put its own internal preoccupations first and let the country go hang.
If Labour was really that concerned about learning from the past and preventing a Tory goernment in future I rather think that it'd have sorted out the skewed electoral system by now.
Post a Comment
Once again, Labour lost in 79, 83 and 87 because it was unelectable. It couldn't get enough votes to win because it didn't deserve them, not because those votes were 'split'.
By the way, the folk you call, variously, 'centrists', 'traitors','ballast against the loony left' and 'sandalwearers' fled from Labour because it was in the grip of some very nasty elements indeed. They knew too that it was essential to defeat Thatcher and or that to happen it was first necessary for Labour to die.
The Liberals behaved entirely responsibly at that time; they worked with the SDP - some of whom they liked, by the way - because it was so essential that Thatcher went. Labour was unfit for office and anyway unable to enter it. Labour continued to put its own internal preoccupations first and let the country go hang.
If Labour was really that concerned about learning from the past and preventing a Tory goernment in future I rather think that it'd have sorted out the skewed electoral system by now.
# posted by : 6:04 PM
: 6:04 PM<< Home
