Friday, August 03, 2007
More talks about talks
Barely is the ink dry on the One Wales document and Plaid Cymru is already casting around for new partners, this time to form an electoral pact to take on Labour in the local Council elections.
Adam Price is quite right of course, different levels of government require different approaches and Labour cannot assume a non-aggression agreement at Council or UK Government level just because they share power with Plaid in Cardiff Bay. Plaid Cymru should remember that this cuts both ways.
Although I accept that there is a need for coalitions to deliver a programme for government in certain circumstances, I am not so sure about the rationale for pacts other than for the purely expedient purpose of getting elected. This sort of arrangement will benefit organisations like People's Voice, who are rooted in a vague ambition to work for the people without being specific as to what exactly that means, however political parties are meant to aim higher than that.
In Plaid Cymru's case they presumably have a set of policies and a philosophy that will not sit very comfortably with a group of independents or even another political party in a loose electoral pact. Are these arrangements to be tied in to a formal policy document or is it just a marriage of convenience? In which case how does it benefit the electorate?
The other parties should also be wary about Plaid Cymru. Their prime motivating factor in coalition talks in Cardiff Bay was their own self-interest. They played the other parties off against each other and they made sure that they held the whip hand at every turn. In both talks on the budget and on the rainbow coalition, Ieuan Wyn Jones turned his back on a done deal and made his own private arrangement with Labour instead. There is nothing wrong with that of course, except where it is wrapped up in warm rhetoric about what is best for Wales.
Plaid Cymru are the same as every other political party, they work to get their own politicians elected and their own policies enacted. The only reason they might enter into a pre-election deal will be to serve their own purposes. Any potential electoral partners need to keep their eyes open and their ears peeled or they will find themselves being left out in the cold.
Adam Price is quite right of course, different levels of government require different approaches and Labour cannot assume a non-aggression agreement at Council or UK Government level just because they share power with Plaid in Cardiff Bay. Plaid Cymru should remember that this cuts both ways.
Although I accept that there is a need for coalitions to deliver a programme for government in certain circumstances, I am not so sure about the rationale for pacts other than for the purely expedient purpose of getting elected. This sort of arrangement will benefit organisations like People's Voice, who are rooted in a vague ambition to work for the people without being specific as to what exactly that means, however political parties are meant to aim higher than that.
In Plaid Cymru's case they presumably have a set of policies and a philosophy that will not sit very comfortably with a group of independents or even another political party in a loose electoral pact. Are these arrangements to be tied in to a formal policy document or is it just a marriage of convenience? In which case how does it benefit the electorate?
The other parties should also be wary about Plaid Cymru. Their prime motivating factor in coalition talks in Cardiff Bay was their own self-interest. They played the other parties off against each other and they made sure that they held the whip hand at every turn. In both talks on the budget and on the rainbow coalition, Ieuan Wyn Jones turned his back on a done deal and made his own private arrangement with Labour instead. There is nothing wrong with that of course, except where it is wrapped up in warm rhetoric about what is best for Wales.
Plaid Cymru are the same as every other political party, they work to get their own politicians elected and their own policies enacted. The only reason they might enter into a pre-election deal will be to serve their own purposes. Any potential electoral partners need to keep their eyes open and their ears peeled or they will find themselves being left out in the cold.
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Come on Peter. Have some dignity in your analysis of the Rainbow collapse. I don’t think many people (with the exception of maybe you and Kirtsy) believe that the Rainbow failed to as a result of anything but the Lib Dems inability to show any sort of stability. Nick Bourne notes in his blog that it was the Lib Dems collapse that was the defining moment. How Plaid, or any party could have been expected to claim a stable Government, when you have a group of 6 liberal AM's that can not agree with one another. You created a party that was simply unable to provide stability to the Government. Has the Liberals ratified the deal in Llandrindod then the coalition would have gone through. It is as simple as that. The fact you find yourself on the fringe of the Welsh political scene, neither in Government or an effective coalition is testament to your own political flaws not that of any other party.
It is not only Plaid which is scrabbling around for coalition partners in local government. Labour is said to be looking to other parties to keep it in power for another four years, in those authorities where its majority is under threat.
My guess is that local issues will determine the make-up of cabinets of councils under NOC next year. Party labels, and national agreements, will be of less importance.
There will be no pre-election deals in Neath Port Talbot if I have anything to do with it.
- Frank Little
My guess is that local issues will determine the make-up of cabinets of councils under NOC next year. Party labels, and national agreements, will be of less importance.
There will be no pre-election deals in Neath Port Talbot if I have anything to do with it.
- Frank Little
So Peter, how cold is it out? Having seen Plaid win two bi-elections in NPT last night, which I thought might be a bit of a litmus test on the new coalition, I can say it's pretty warm inside the tent at the moment.
The very nature of local government - 22 separate units and battles in Wales - and the plurality of deals this involves for all bigger parties means that national deals with potential partners would be very difficult to reach and enforce locally. The current patchwork across Wales in authorities across Wales where one party is not in control shows how different local alignments are already in place.
Still, this is another indicator of a changing politics.
It's interesting to see Plaid choosing to talk to the Green Party and People’s Voice on this occasion. Your tone suggests the Lib Dems still aren't ready to answer the phone... ;)
Still, this is another indicator of a changing politics.
It's interesting to see Plaid choosing to talk to the Green Party and People’s Voice on this occasion. Your tone suggests the Lib Dems still aren't ready to answer the phone... ;)
# posted by 
: 10:59 AM
: 10:59 AM
The other parties should also be wary about Plaid Cymru. Their prime motivating factor in coalition talks in Cardiff Bay was their own self-interest. They played the other parties off against each other and they made sure that they held the whip hand at every turn. In both talks on the budget and on the rainbow coalition, Ieuan Wyn Jones turned his back on a done deal and made his own private arrangement with Labour instead. There is nothing wrong with that of course, except where it is wrapped up in warm rhetoric about what is best for Wales.
cmon, you can hardly take the moral highground!
cmon, you can hardly take the moral highground!
# posted by : 11:19 AM
: 11:19 AM
Che: I dont accept that analysis. Plaid had the agreement of the other two parties and they walked away as they did previously over the budget. There was nothing unstable about the Liberal Democrat group either. We had already sustained one coalition and were capable of doing so again. Like all democratic bodies there were disagreements but we have more in common than not and we can be a very effective team as was shown by our discipline in opposition in the second Assembly, in complete contrast to the Plaid Cymru group.
Nor do I accept that we are on the fringes, much as you would like it to be so. We lead four major Councils representing over 1 million people and are the second party of opposition with a distinct and radical message.
Ponty, PLaid may have won two community Council by-elections last night in areas of strength but when it came to a real test in Llansamlet on 19 July they slumped to third place, lost 4.9% of the vote and barely beat the BNP. By contrast the Welsh Lib Dems doubled our vote and ran Labour a close second in one of their strongest wards.
Daran, as you say there are 22 local Councils. In some at least we may do deals. My instincts though are to avoid electoral pacts, which tend to be unprincipled alliances of convenience though not coalitions based on common policies.
Nor do I accept that we are on the fringes, much as you would like it to be so. We lead four major Councils representing over 1 million people and are the second party of opposition with a distinct and radical message.
Ponty, PLaid may have won two community Council by-elections last night in areas of strength but when it came to a real test in Llansamlet on 19 July they slumped to third place, lost 4.9% of the vote and barely beat the BNP. By contrast the Welsh Lib Dems doubled our vote and ran Labour a close second in one of their strongest wards.
Daran, as you say there are 22 local Councils. In some at least we may do deals. My instincts though are to avoid electoral pacts, which tend to be unprincipled alliances of convenience though not coalitions based on common policies.
Peter ... come, come.
There is no-one in or around the political village who doesn't know the real story.
Raw ambition was at play to get rid of Mike German.
The attempted coup d'etat split the Lib Dems wide open.
You couldn't get an agreement 'outside' your tent because you were all p.....g at each other within your tent.
Now we've all heard the rumours about the different roles each of you played - the little elf from Mid Wales ... the gog who wanted to Burnhim ... and Brutus black-jack, but rumours is rumours.
The only thing we can point to as truth is that if you're going to storm the palace make sure you get your timing right otherwise you may end up sitting on your a..e on the lawn while those in power wave to you from the upper balcony!
There is no-one in or around the political village who doesn't know the real story.
Raw ambition was at play to get rid of Mike German.
The attempted coup d'etat split the Lib Dems wide open.
You couldn't get an agreement 'outside' your tent because you were all p.....g at each other within your tent.
Now we've all heard the rumours about the different roles each of you played - the little elf from Mid Wales ... the gog who wanted to Burnhim ... and Brutus black-jack, but rumours is rumours.
The only thing we can point to as truth is that if you're going to storm the palace make sure you get your timing right otherwise you may end up sitting on your a..e on the lawn while those in power wave to you from the upper balcony!
That is the problem with villages, political or otherwise, they gossip behind twitching curtains but often get it completely wrong about what their neighbours are up to. In this case you are way off the mark in more ways than you can imagine.
It's amazing how Plaid are continuing to get away with blaming the collapse of the rainbow on the Lib Dem fiasco in Llandrindod.
It's a great cover for the role played by Plaid's Presiding Officer in moving forward Rhodri Morgan's swearing as First Minister in which also changed the dynamic - not to say their double-dealing throughout the whole process.
Why aren't we being reminded instead that Plaid promised they wouldn't prop up a Labour administration - only to go and do just that?
It's a great cover for the role played by Plaid's Presiding Officer in moving forward Rhodri Morgan's swearing as First Minister in which also changed the dynamic - not to say their double-dealing throughout the whole process.
Why aren't we being reminded instead that Plaid promised they wouldn't prop up a Labour administration - only to go and do just that?
# posted by : 3:42 PM
: 3:42 PM
I have to say I'm in agreement with Cleckanndra. I am not saying who is to blame spesifically, I'm sure the internal Lib Dem scuffles are depper than discussed. The basis of the collapse is between you as a party. One thing that can be taken for truth however is that the Rainbow failed to emerge because the Liberals did not endorse it. had they done that a Rainbow Government would be in place. What has happened since is neither here nor there. Had you ratified the deal in llandrindod it would be in place. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Che, you can agree with Cleckanndra all you like but neither of you understand the dynamics of the Welsh Liberal Democrat group nor do you know what is going on with us. You are both wrong.
As for whether Plaid would have endorsed the Rainbow if the Welsh Lib Dem Executive had voted to pass it to Conference, that is a matter of conjecture. Plaid's past record on these things indicates that they may well have still hedged their bets. After all the Lib Dems did endorse it on the Saturday but there was no sign of Plaid doing the same.
As for whether Plaid would have endorsed the Rainbow if the Welsh Lib Dem Executive had voted to pass it to Conference, that is a matter of conjecture. Plaid's past record on these things indicates that they may well have still hedged their bets. After all the Lib Dems did endorse it on the Saturday but there was no sign of Plaid doing the same.
where DO all these Plaid attack-trolls come from whenever that 'party' is mentioned ?!
I suppose that if they think that they can shout loud and often enough that the Rainbow collapsed because of the LDs' brief constitutional wobble, rather than through Plaid double-dealing, some of us might believe it. I don't. Next May should be fun.
You don't think Plaid double-deal? Those of us who suffer under the wretched Vale Council know only too well that they do! Ask the Tories (but not the indie ones fro LLantwit) ...
I suppose that if they think that they can shout loud and often enough that the Rainbow collapsed because of the LDs' brief constitutional wobble, rather than through Plaid double-dealing, some of us might believe it. I don't. Next May should be fun.
You don't think Plaid double-deal? Those of us who suffer under the wretched Vale Council know only too well that they do! Ask the Tories (but not the indie ones fro LLantwit) ...
# posted by : 4:09 PM
: 4:09 PM
I think the collapse of the Rainbow coalition is cause the Lib Dem executive couldnt make up their minds, nothing to do with Plaid. I think that the other partys may not trust us now, and i cant blame them. We look weak and unable to make up our minds. Such a shame as the Rainbow coalition looked promising with some good ideas, such as PR for local government elections.
# posted by : 4:36 PM
: 4:36 PM
Dearest Peter,
This is one that you are not going to live down.
Everytime you broach this subject matter you pull the scab off.
Just resist the temptation to reset the clock and "Move on, Move on".
This is one that you are not going to live down.
Everytime you broach this subject matter you pull the scab off.
Just resist the temptation to reset the clock and "Move on, Move on".
# posted by : 5:00 PM
: 5:00 PM
"Plaid Cymru are the same as every other political party, they work to get their own politicians elected and their own policies enacted."
No arguments there, Peter. But, as you suggest, this is equally true of Labour, the Tories and even your own dear selves.
I'm afraid that by your standards this really is a miserly, dismal post, which does nothing but highlight your own disappointment as a party at no longer holding 'the whip' in your hands.
As for your routined play at the blame game, no amount of spin will dispel the belief that it was your party that caused the Rainbow to fade. Until you provide hard evidence to the contrary, this is the only conclusion I can draw from what is out in the public domain. Clearly, I am not alone.
No arguments there, Peter. But, as you suggest, this is equally true of Labour, the Tories and even your own dear selves.
I'm afraid that by your standards this really is a miserly, dismal post, which does nothing but highlight your own disappointment as a party at no longer holding 'the whip' in your hands.
As for your routined play at the blame game, no amount of spin will dispel the belief that it was your party that caused the Rainbow to fade. Until you provide hard evidence to the contrary, this is the only conclusion I can draw from what is out in the public domain. Clearly, I am not alone.
More and more Plaid self-justification for their dropping the rainbow and propping up Labour...
They'll do anything to hide the fact that they USED the other non-Labour parties to create the best bargaining position for their preferred deal - just like they did in the Budget negotiations at the end of 06...
There's a pattern emerging here - Plaid might not like it - but they are now Labour's little helpers.
The Llandrindod line is SO last year - Labour's little helpers will be trotted out time and time again from here on in...
They'll do anything to hide the fact that they USED the other non-Labour parties to create the best bargaining position for their preferred deal - just like they did in the Budget negotiations at the end of 06...
There's a pattern emerging here - Plaid might not like it - but they are now Labour's little helpers.
The Llandrindod line is SO last year - Labour's little helpers will be trotted out time and time again from here on in...
# posted by : 8:10 PM
: 8:10 PM
It seems to me Farscape and Gwe that you are the ones who have a problem with this not me. I am comfortable that the Welsh Liberal Democrats did everything possible that a democratic party could do to get the rainbow coalition to work, but it was Plaid in the end who walked away from it. They did so at a time when all the dissenters in the Welsh Lib Dems had lined up behind the majority view of Conference and were prepared to make it work.
As for pulling scabs, this post was actually about something else but it is you and others who have sought to re-open old Plaid Cymru wounds.
Frankly, I am not disappointed at all but energised and full of anticipation at the opportunities that the new political landscape offers to my party. It seems that the same cannot be said of you.
As for pulling scabs, this post was actually about something else but it is you and others who have sought to re-open old Plaid Cymru wounds.
Frankly, I am not disappointed at all but energised and full of anticipation at the opportunities that the new political landscape offers to my party. It seems that the same cannot be said of you.
Oh Peter,
Your explanations are sending me into fits of laughter!
You do a good one-man act!
Have you thought about putting on your own show at The Grand Theatre?
Your explanations are sending me into fits of laughter!
You do a good one-man act!
Have you thought about putting on your own show at The Grand Theatre?
# posted by : 9:44 PM
: 9:44 PM
Oh dear Peter, you seem to have struck a chord here. Methinks they doth protest too much.
I did warn people at the special conference that Plaid were not to be trusted.
I did warn people at the special conference that Plaid were not to be trusted.
Ponty "Huw Plaid Cllr" Evans (butty of Mike James) claims Plaid won two elections this week - well they were just Parish elections and one was one by a former County councillor who'd previously lost his seat - so big deal "Huw" Ponty.
The subject Peter Black is discussing is the way parties are scrabbling to form Coalitions. They need not look at Cardiff Bay. They should study the PLC Coalition at Swansea County Hall where Plaid and Tories joined with Labour. The Plaid lot there even voted at one stage with Labour against the package to deliver the new build for Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Llwynderw. Plaid also voted for a UKIP Lord Mayor candidate barring a local Gwladgarwr the opportunity of becoming Lord Mayor. Plaid and Tories in Swansea are driven by Labour. So "Huw" Ponty Evans come down from Pontardawe to Swansea to see how your butties Darren Price and Rene Kinzett cuddle up to Labour continuously.
The subject Peter Black is discussing is the way parties are scrabbling to form Coalitions. They need not look at Cardiff Bay. They should study the PLC Coalition at Swansea County Hall where Plaid and Tories joined with Labour. The Plaid lot there even voted at one stage with Labour against the package to deliver the new build for Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Llwynderw. Plaid also voted for a UKIP Lord Mayor candidate barring a local Gwladgarwr the opportunity of becoming Lord Mayor. Plaid and Tories in Swansea are driven by Labour. So "Huw" Ponty Evans come down from Pontardawe to Swansea to see how your butties Darren Price and Rene Kinzett cuddle up to Labour continuously.
"It seems to me Farscape and Gwe that you are the ones who have a problem with this not me."
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. I was one of the few bloggers who supported a Labour-Plaid coalition when it seemed nothing more than a fanciful notion.
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. I was one of the few bloggers who supported a Labour-Plaid coalition when it seemed nothing more than a fanciful notion.
Peter you are the exception to the often quoted rule, "You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into." In your case, you have reasoned in a twisted way into a position that beggars belief. Perhaps the rule needs appending, "... and you can't reason a man out of a position he insanely reasoned himself into!"
# posted by : 10:55 PM
: 10:55 PM
"Che, you can agree with Cleckanndra all you like but neither of you understand the dynamics of the Welsh Lib Dem group, nor do you know what is going on with us".
Ah, Peter, but we will watch, now, with interest as those dynamics change.
There you are the magnificent seven sitting on the palace lawn, all forlorn, eyeing each other nervously while you seek what crumbs are thrown to you.
No power, and time to reflect on your regrets.
The seventh member of the group?
The most compelling!
The ill-formed shape and shadow - of ambition ..... gone wrong.
Ah, Peter, but we will watch, now, with interest as those dynamics change.
There you are the magnificent seven sitting on the palace lawn, all forlorn, eyeing each other nervously while you seek what crumbs are thrown to you.
No power, and time to reflect on your regrets.
The seventh member of the group?
The most compelling!
The ill-formed shape and shadow - of ambition ..... gone wrong.
Cleckandra, this is the Welsh Liberal Democrats not the last days of the Imperial Court of Tiberius. Have you been watching back episodes of 'I, Claudius'?
Farscape, you seem to think that other views are not legitimate. This is not the case. If I fell in with the prevailing orthodoxies all the time I would not be in the Liberal Democrats. We have been here before and have come back stronger. I do not accept that we are marginalised. In fact all I can see are opportunities.
Gwe, if you got what you wanted then why are you complaining?
This thread has started to go around in circles. I propose to end it unless somebody comes up with something original.
Farscape, you seem to think that other views are not legitimate. This is not the case. If I fell in with the prevailing orthodoxies all the time I would not be in the Liberal Democrats. We have been here before and have come back stronger. I do not accept that we are marginalised. In fact all I can see are opportunities.
Gwe, if you got what you wanted then why are you complaining?
This thread has started to go around in circles. I propose to end it unless somebody comes up with something original.
Well I dont know if is a fresh comment, but as someone who is not signed up to a party -yet.
Peter -what are the plans that the Lib Dems have now to regain lost ground.
From a nuetral view -Mike G is damaged, Kirsty is Damaged, Mick Bates is vulnerable, Elinor B looks ok , Jenny R looks strong, you look rather excluded.
Lembit is not doing you any favours at the moment.
I have been waiting for some action or activity from your party, where is it.
Peter -what are the plans that the Lib Dems have now to regain lost ground.
From a nuetral view -Mike G is damaged, Kirsty is Damaged, Mick Bates is vulnerable, Elinor B looks ok , Jenny R looks strong, you look rather excluded.
Lembit is not doing you any favours at the moment.
I have been waiting for some action or activity from your party, where is it.
# posted by : 11:39 AM
: 11:39 AM
There has already been a lot of activity on the ground, notably in two local Council by-elections in Swansea and Montgomeryshire where we polled well. As with everything though it is a matter of time and our abilities to make the most of the opportunities that present themselves in the Assembly in the new term. I dont agree with your analysis of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group but again things will look very different in six months time. We are using the recess to do some thinking and rebuilding.
I dont agree with your analysis of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group but again things will look very different in six months time. We are using the recess to do some thinking and rebuilding
help me out here then,whats your analysis whats on the agenda for change and what are you looking at rebuilding,
help me out here then,whats your analysis whats on the agenda for change and what are you looking at rebuilding,
# posted by : 7:29 PM
: 7:29 PM
Well clearly the objective is to make us an effective opposition and to refine our message into a narrative that resonates with the Welsh public but this is still work in progress and I cannot comment further at this time.
Valleys Mam, you also need to realise that the party is bigger than the Assembly group, and the task of rebuilding lies with all of us. Whilst the Group is obviously not without influence and have a central role to play (as do our MPs) they are only a part of the overall machine, as Peter and the rest would acknowledge.
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