Friday, July 20, 2007
Two classes of MP?
The Conservative leadership cannot be too happy this morning after their imposed candidate in Ealing Southall, standing as a David Cameron Conservative, limped into third place in the by-election. This result will offer succour to those dissident voices in the Tory Party who have expressed doubts about the Cameron revolution, whilst it also underlines just how rootless those changes really are.
As if to reinforce the impression of a Tory leader making it up as he goes along this morning's Western Mail carries news of a new Cameron initiative. The paper's Political Editor tells us that Mr Cameron has floated the idea of “English votes for English issues” in the past, but yesterday he went further, promising it will be implemented if he wins the next general election.
Creating two different classes of MP within one institution is not really a sustainable way to take forward the devolution project. It shows a compete misunderstanding of the whole concept. This is particularly so when the number of Scottish MPs has already been reduced, and when Wales does not have full law-making powers.
As I believe I have said before there are very few specifically English-only issues. A good example is student finance, where although this is devolved to both Wales and Scotland, a decision to increase the level of top-up fees in England will have huge financial consequences for the devolved administrations. Putting aside the fact that half of Welsh students go to English Universities, is Cameron really going to deny Welsh MPs a vote on an issue that will directly affect their constituencies in this way?
If the Tory leader is serious about addressing the West Lothian question then the only logical way is to give English voters the same sort of political empowerment enjoyed by their neighbours. To do anything else will just create more constitutional anomolies and problems.
As if to reinforce the impression of a Tory leader making it up as he goes along this morning's Western Mail carries news of a new Cameron initiative. The paper's Political Editor tells us that Mr Cameron has floated the idea of “English votes for English issues” in the past, but yesterday he went further, promising it will be implemented if he wins the next general election.
Creating two different classes of MP within one institution is not really a sustainable way to take forward the devolution project. It shows a compete misunderstanding of the whole concept. This is particularly so when the number of Scottish MPs has already been reduced, and when Wales does not have full law-making powers.
As I believe I have said before there are very few specifically English-only issues. A good example is student finance, where although this is devolved to both Wales and Scotland, a decision to increase the level of top-up fees in England will have huge financial consequences for the devolved administrations. Putting aside the fact that half of Welsh students go to English Universities, is Cameron really going to deny Welsh MPs a vote on an issue that will directly affect their constituencies in this way?
If the Tory leader is serious about addressing the West Lothian question then the only logical way is to give English voters the same sort of political empowerment enjoyed by their neighbours. To do anything else will just create more constitutional anomolies and problems.
Comments:
<< Home
Don't I recall the voters in some English regions rejecting this political empowerment. Maybe the voters in Wales should be given the same choice again.
# posted by 
: 1:22 PM
: 1:22 PM
It doesn't matter if the number of Scottish and Welsh MPs is reduced to one a piece - that would still be two too many.
We could always even it up by putting some English MPs in the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament (unaccountable to any Scottish or Welsh voters) to see how you like the arrangement.
Although you make a valid point when you say that Welsh and Scottish MPs have a right to vote on English bills because it affects the Barnett Formula, you neglect to say that the Barnett Formula should be scrapped thereby removing this problem.
We could always even it up by putting some English MPs in the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament (unaccountable to any Scottish or Welsh voters) to see how you like the arrangement.
Although you make a valid point when you say that Welsh and Scottish MPs have a right to vote on English bills because it affects the Barnett Formula, you neglect to say that the Barnett Formula should be scrapped thereby removing this problem.
"If the Tory leader is serious about addressing the West Lothian question then the only logical way is to give English voters the same sort of political empowerment enjoyed by their neighbours."
ie an English Parliament
This increasing realisation seems to be more prevalent in Wales and Scotland than in the political classes of England - but slowly , very very slowly , the English political class are cottoning on to the obvious .
I amke it about six months and Cameron will suddenly have a brainwave and declare support for an English parliament .
ie an English Parliament
This increasing realisation seems to be more prevalent in Wales and Scotland than in the political classes of England - but slowly , very very slowly , the English political class are cottoning on to the obvious .
I amke it about six months and Cameron will suddenly have a brainwave and declare support for an English parliament .
# posted by : 6:12 PM
: 6:12 PM
I dont think the voters of North East England were even given the choice of an Assembly of anywhere near the equivalent to that in Wales in 1999.
It is not just the Barnett formula that is the problem but even if that is reformed there will still be these kinds of funding consequences for Wales and Scotland.
It is not just the Barnett formula that is the problem but even if that is reformed there will still be these kinds of funding consequences for Wales and Scotland.
Your argument of fiscal entanglements leads only to greater separation as a solution since the English people must have political equity.
# posted by : 7:06 PM
: 7:06 PM
"As I believe I have said before there are very few specifically English-only issues. A good example is student finance, where although this is devolved to both Wales and Scotland, a decision to increase the level of top-up fees in England will have huge financial consequences for the devolved administrations. Putting aside the fact that half of Welsh students go to English Universities, is Cameron really going to deny Welsh MPs a vote on an issue that will directly affect their constituencies in this way?"
Charging English students top up fees in Scotland and Wales even though those countries aren't charging their own students them, directly affects the constituents of English MPs, don't see you saying they should get a vote on it though. Your article is a typical case of Welsh/Scottish Labour / Lib Dem MPs/MSPs/AMs' desire to have their devolution cake and eat it.
Charging English students top up fees in Scotland and Wales even though those countries aren't charging their own students them, directly affects the constituents of English MPs, don't see you saying they should get a vote on it though. Your article is a typical case of Welsh/Scottish Labour / Lib Dem MPs/MSPs/AMs' desire to have their devolution cake and eat it.
# posted by : 7:09 PM
: 7:09 PM
Although I would prefer to not have top-up fees at all or even to pay the top up fees of all students at all Welsh HEIs, it is not affordable for the Welsh Assembly as a whole.
The compromise we reached is a very effective example of a devolved administration mitigating a disastrous UK policy.
The English MPs did have a vote and they voted to introduce top up fees. The Assembly voted to spare Welsh Students in Welsh HEIs some of the pain of that decision.
The compromise we reached is a very effective example of a devolved administration mitigating a disastrous UK policy.
The English MPs did have a vote and they voted to introduce top up fees. The Assembly voted to spare Welsh Students in Welsh HEIs some of the pain of that decision.
Oh and sorry not this 'the only reason 78% of people in the north east rejected the 'regional' assembly' was because it was not powerful enough' essentially flawed argument AGAIN. 1) there is no way any regional assembly will ever have power like the Scottish parliament and soon to be Welsh parliament because what would all those MPs at Westminster do with their time? 2)Regional power CENTRALISES it in a few favoured cities and people in the NE were wary of power being concentrated in Newcastle.3) Even Tony Blair has recently admitted that even in the NE people's loyalty is far more local ie to Sunderland and NOT the NE in general. 4) English people do NOT want a postcode lottery writ large. 5) In Wales as in Scotland you have been given NATIONAL and not regional devolution with all the concomitant political recognition as a NATION. 6) You wonder then what all the fuss is about and like all the unionists hope against hope that England will just put up with it. I don't think they will certainly in the medium to long term and perhaps not even in the short.
# posted by : 7:21 PM
: 7:21 PM
Is it not the case that the Higher Education Bill was passed by 316 votes to 311 but would have failed without the interference of Scottish MPs? Please don't give me that 80% of MPs argument because all it says is that English MPs should consider and vote on every piece of legislation as a nationalist bloc to make sure Scottish and Welsh votes are overcome. We don't want 80% of MPs in the parliament that pretends to represent us we want 100% like any other nation, like the Welsh soon to be parliament.
# posted by : 7:30 PM
: 7:30 PM
Your argument is based on a misquotation of what I said and a wrong assumption of what I believe. At no time did I state that 'the only reason 78% of people in the north east rejected the 'regional' assembly' was because it was not powerful enough'
If England prefer a national parliament as part of a Federal UK as opposed to regional government, who am I to stand in their way?
If England prefer a national parliament as part of a Federal UK as opposed to regional government, who am I to stand in their way?
"The compromise we reached is a very effective example of a devolved administration mitigating a disastrous UK policy.
The English MPs did have a vote and they voted to introduce top up fees. The Assembly voted to spare Welsh Students in Welsh HEIs some of the pain of that decision."
You and I both know we wouldn't have top up fees in England if it hadn't been for Scottish Labour MPs acting as Lobby Fodder.
English students have been charged in Scotland to prevent fee refugees 'flooding' Scottish courses and restricting access for Scottish students. It's apparently fine fo us to be disadvantaged in the rest of the UK but the rest of the UK mustn't be inconvenienced by the English making decisions in the same way. What's yours is yours and what's ours is yours as well.
The English MPs did have a vote and they voted to introduce top up fees. The Assembly voted to spare Welsh Students in Welsh HEIs some of the pain of that decision."
You and I both know we wouldn't have top up fees in England if it hadn't been for Scottish Labour MPs acting as Lobby Fodder.
English students have been charged in Scotland to prevent fee refugees 'flooding' Scottish courses and restricting access for Scottish students. It's apparently fine fo us to be disadvantaged in the rest of the UK but the rest of the UK mustn't be inconvenienced by the English making decisions in the same way. What's yours is yours and what's ours is yours as well.
# posted by : 8:06 PM
: 8:06 PM
Strange that you don't refer to the inability of the Lib Dem by-election machine to wrest a seat out of Labour's control in Llansamlet despite all the scandal and smears. Will this comment also get mysteriously deleted by accident?
# posted by : 8:23 PM
: 8:23 PM
At the moment it is difficult to see how Westminster watchers separate out the England only elements of Commons Committees from those that are England and Wales or UK.
My inclination would be to recognise Cornwall as well as the other nations. I think it probable that the greatest risk to the Union is the too little decentralisation too late that Unionists are inclined to favour.
One way for Cameron to proceed would be to designate Mondays and Fridays as England only days at Westminster and present Federal legislation from Tuesday to Thursday. The separation to an Assembly for England and a British Parliament could then follow a subsequent election with greatly reduced numbers of British MPs from each of the countries and the degree of devolution to Assemblies and Scottish Parliament on about the lines favoured by the Scottish Lib Dems for Scotland. STV hopefully to apply to all tiers bar the British House of Commons and Lords. Assembly and Westminster Ministries to be separated.
Would you be inclined to the devolution of powers to the degree favoured by the Scottish Lib Dems?
My inclination would be to recognise Cornwall as well as the other nations. I think it probable that the greatest risk to the Union is the too little decentralisation too late that Unionists are inclined to favour.
One way for Cameron to proceed would be to designate Mondays and Fridays as England only days at Westminster and present Federal legislation from Tuesday to Thursday. The separation to an Assembly for England and a British Parliament could then follow a subsequent election with greatly reduced numbers of British MPs from each of the countries and the degree of devolution to Assemblies and Scottish Parliament on about the lines favoured by the Scottish Lib Dems for Scotland. STV hopefully to apply to all tiers bar the British House of Commons and Lords. Assembly and Westminster Ministries to be separated.
Would you be inclined to the devolution of powers to the degree favoured by the Scottish Lib Dems?
Actually Shambo the Llansamlet by-election is referred to in the entry below entitled First Test and the result is in the comments. I did consider blogging on it in more detail but did not want to gloat too much at how well the Welsh Liberal Democrats had done in a safe Labour seat - doubling our vote share and moving into second place at a time when we are being written off in Wales and when we run the Council and are, by definition, sitting ducks for criticism.
Sarah, as I said the issue here is accountability but I have no problem with a devolved arrangement for England where they can mitigate the impact of disastrous Federal policies.
Garenig, I am very interested in the Scottish Lib Dem proposals and can see merit in them.
Sarah, as I said the issue here is accountability but I have no problem with a devolved arrangement for England where they can mitigate the impact of disastrous Federal policies.
Garenig, I am very interested in the Scottish Lib Dem proposals and can see merit in them.
This government brought in devolution on nationalism.
If they had brought in north and south welsh assemblies, cornwall,then 2 or 3 in scotland on regional lines then they probrably would have been accepted in England.
English votes on English laws is incomprehensible,it would mean the present speaker Martin would have to declare a bill English only and then leave the chamber himself.
The Conservatives refuse to debate how all this would work, mainly because they don't know.
I suggest a new british parliament in place of the Lords and an English parliament in the commons.
I would be happy for an equal number of MP's from England Wales scotland and northern Ireland to sit there.
If they had brought in north and south welsh assemblies, cornwall,then 2 or 3 in scotland on regional lines then they probrably would have been accepted in England.
English votes on English laws is incomprehensible,it would mean the present speaker Martin would have to declare a bill English only and then leave the chamber himself.
The Conservatives refuse to debate how all this would work, mainly because they don't know.
I suggest a new british parliament in place of the Lords and an English parliament in the commons.
I would be happy for an equal number of MP's from England Wales scotland and northern Ireland to sit there.
# posted by : 11:38 PM
: 11:38 PM
"It is not just the Barnett formula that is the problem but even if that is reformed there will still be these kinds of funding consequences for Wales and Scotland."
And there are consequences for England on what Scotland and Wales do. The sooner we move to a federal arrangement, or full independence, the sooner these things can be ironed out.
The Status Quo is inexcusable, and English Votes on English Matters is unworkable for a number of reasons.
An English Grand Committee could be a stop-gap solution to a full English parliament, but no more than that, it wouldn't improve governance and it would leave Scottish and Welsh MPs as part-time MPs, which would have the knock-on effect of excluding them from government by making it difficult for them to get into the UK/English cabinet.
At the end of the day the only solution is to ask the English what they want. We want an English parliament, and hang the consequences.
And there are consequences for England on what Scotland and Wales do. The sooner we move to a federal arrangement, or full independence, the sooner these things can be ironed out.
The Status Quo is inexcusable, and English Votes on English Matters is unworkable for a number of reasons.
An English Grand Committee could be a stop-gap solution to a full English parliament, but no more than that, it wouldn't improve governance and it would leave Scottish and Welsh MPs as part-time MPs, which would have the knock-on effect of excluding them from government by making it difficult for them to get into the UK/English cabinet.
At the end of the day the only solution is to ask the English what they want. We want an English parliament, and hang the consequences.
England should have the same rights as Wales and Scotland, nothing more and nothing less...a Parliament of her own.
Anything short of this will not do!
Anything short of this will not do!
Oh yawn Terry - England is finally paying a (very small price) for her historic aggression to her smaller neighbours. Had the UN been around when England was invading, subjugating and trashing the local economies of the celtic nations then you would have been the subject of rogue state sanctions. In terms of guilt preparations, the Barnett Frmula is very small beer indeed. The problem is that England is so used to lording it over everyone else, you can't even be generous about that.
# posted by : 2:21 PM
: 2:21 PM
>The Conservative leadership cannot
>be too happy this morning after
>their imposed candidate in Ealing
>Southall, standing as a David
>Cameron Conservative, limped into
>third place in the by-election.
Nor did they do well in Sedgefield. BBC Radio News this morning (Sunday) reports that two Tory MPs have called for a party inquiry into Cameron's leadership.
Post a Comment
>be too happy this morning after
>their imposed candidate in Ealing
>Southall, standing as a David
>Cameron Conservative, limped into
>third place in the by-election.
Nor did they do well in Sedgefield. BBC Radio News this morning (Sunday) reports that two Tory MPs have called for a party inquiry into Cameron's leadership.
<< Home
