Thursday, July 05, 2007
Not so reluctant rebels
This morning's Western Mail picks up on the rebellion by the remaining members of Labour's Gang of Four, joining Lynne Neagle in objecting to their party's link-up with Plaid Cymru.
Meanwhile, the BBC are reporting that former Welsh Secretary, Paul Murphy, has joined in, telling Dragon's Eye tonight that he speaks on behalf of the majority of Welsh Labour MPs in being opposed to the coalition.
Paul Murphy is a heavyweight politician but he knows and has admitted that he is in a minority within his party as a whole and will lose the vote tomorrow.
This is beginning to look like a co-ordinated campaign. No wonder some Plaid activists and bloggers are starting to question whether this pact will be stable as well. What they need to realise however is that dissent within debate does not in most instances signal a permanent split. The outcome is important and provided it has been reached through an open and democratic debate then members will by and large fall-in behind it. And even Paul Murphy believes that the outcome is beyond doubt. Still who am I to reassure Plaid Cymru activists?
Meanwhile, the BBC are reporting that former Welsh Secretary, Paul Murphy, has joined in, telling Dragon's Eye tonight that he speaks on behalf of the majority of Welsh Labour MPs in being opposed to the coalition.
Paul Murphy is a heavyweight politician but he knows and has admitted that he is in a minority within his party as a whole and will lose the vote tomorrow.
This is beginning to look like a co-ordinated campaign. No wonder some Plaid activists and bloggers are starting to question whether this pact will be stable as well. What they need to realise however is that dissent within debate does not in most instances signal a permanent split. The outcome is important and provided it has been reached through an open and democratic debate then members will by and large fall-in behind it. And even Paul Murphy believes that the outcome is beyond doubt. Still who am I to reassure Plaid Cymru activists?
Comments:
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You are 48 hours away from another 4 years as the most insignificant party in the Assembly, when it could have been all so different if your party hadn't blinked when the pressure was on.
From what I can muster, many of your members hold you and your legal Lord personally responsible for this, through your influence on your NEC.
Many members from the Tories and Plaid who wanted the Rainbow coalition also hold you responsible. I still do not think you comprehend how much damage you have done to the Welsh Liberal Democrats and it may take many years for the others parties to trust you again, in Cardiff Bay.
Without meaning to be too patronising, I am surprised that a politician of your undoubted ability could make such a fundamental mistake.
From what I can muster, many of your members hold you and your legal Lord personally responsible for this, through your influence on your NEC.
Many members from the Tories and Plaid who wanted the Rainbow coalition also hold you responsible. I still do not think you comprehend how much damage you have done to the Welsh Liberal Democrats and it may take many years for the others parties to trust you again, in Cardiff Bay.
Without meaning to be too patronising, I am surprised that a politician of your undoubted ability could make such a fundamental mistake.
# posted by 
: 9:38 AM
: 9:38 AM
Plaid supporters might feel happier about the deal if they could be reassured that all Labour AMs have read the document and had anything they do not understand explained to them.
Likewise the MPs.
Likewise the MPs.
# posted by : 9:51 AM
: 9:51 AM
you're right about a 'coordinated campaign' taking place! this is the precursor to the opposition from within welsh labour - or to be more precise valleys labour - to more powers for the assembly!
Precisely the same areas helped sink the assembly in 1979, and almost succeeded in 1997!
Some elements of welsh labour simply cannot be trusted on devolution its a simple as that!
Precisely the same areas helped sink the assembly in 1979, and almost succeeded in 1997!
Some elements of welsh labour simply cannot be trusted on devolution its a simple as that!
# posted by : 10:20 AM
: 10:20 AM
Anon 9.38am: As I have said on many occasions you should not write off the Welsh Liberal Democrats so easily. I was entitled to my views and I was equally entitled to express them, however if the Executive blinked then the fault lies with those who failed to persuade apparently natural allies of their case for the rainbow coalition. Even then the deal was on the table and it was Plaid who walked away from it. Dont try and blame me or the Liberal Democrats for Plaid's choices.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats have a clear role in this new Assembly and we will fulfil it more than adequately. The position we are in is the product of our election performance not anything I have done.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats have a clear role in this new Assembly and we will fulfil it more than adequately. The position we are in is the product of our election performance not anything I have done.
the notion that just because members of welsh labour disagree with this one wales document they cannot be trusted with devolution is utter nosense.
the disapproval of the one wales document stretches way beyond the valleys.
the disapproval of the one wales document stretches way beyond the valleys.
# posted by : 4:51 PM
: 4:51 PM
"What they need to realise however is that dissent within debate does not in most instances signal a permanent split. The outcome is important and provided it has been reached through an open and democratic debate then members will by and large fall-in behind it."
Absolutely. Any party that doesn't have serious debate around building a coalition with another party is a strange party indeed. Political parties have come a cropper when they don't have an "open and democratic debate" on such issues.
Ordinary party members in all parties have wanted a voice throughout the last two months. Problems have arisen when they feel that voice has been denied.
Yes, it's not a pleasant place in certain parts of Welsh Labour at the moment and some of the language being used is very hard, but like you I think parties come together once a vote is taken. In respect of Welsh Labour, Monday will probably be a lot less acrimonious than tomorrow.
Well for a bit anyway - the election for Rhodri's successor some years hence could well reflect the divisions that have been apparent in recent weeks.
Absolutely. Any party that doesn't have serious debate around building a coalition with another party is a strange party indeed. Political parties have come a cropper when they don't have an "open and democratic debate" on such issues.
Ordinary party members in all parties have wanted a voice throughout the last two months. Problems have arisen when they feel that voice has been denied.
Yes, it's not a pleasant place in certain parts of Welsh Labour at the moment and some of the language being used is very hard, but like you I think parties come together once a vote is taken. In respect of Welsh Labour, Monday will probably be a lot less acrimonious than tomorrow.
Well for a bit anyway - the election for Rhodri's successor some years hence could well reflect the divisions that have been apparent in recent weeks.
# posted by : 5:07 PM
: 5:07 PM
Peter you must be quaking in your boots - all those Plaid and Tory members you've upset. Shame on you!
Just how ridiculous can you get. No one person was responsible for the Exec's decision. As the Conference showed a large proportion of members were against it, including me - but then I am well used to upsetting Plaid members.
As for these continuing allegations that it is somehow all the fault of the Welsh Liberal Democrats that Plaid are climbing into bed with the party they promsied to 'kick into touch'it says a lot for the disquiet that exists in that camp.
Just how ridiculous can you get. No one person was responsible for the Exec's decision. As the Conference showed a large proportion of members were against it, including me - but then I am well used to upsetting Plaid members.
As for these continuing allegations that it is somehow all the fault of the Welsh Liberal Democrats that Plaid are climbing into bed with the party they promsied to 'kick into touch'it says a lot for the disquiet that exists in that camp.
Such a shame that Labour look to be back in government. I cant understand how the Executive voted yes to continue talks on the Rainbow Coalition then coudnt make their mind up when they voted for the second time, i think that the decision should have been put to party members first, we need a change in the rules. A goldern opportunity has been missed, what a strange situation we campaign for years against Labour in Swansea, Cardiff, etc and its because of the way the executive votes that Labour look to be back. I doubt that we will have any influence in the Assembly, and i all fairness to Mike German i think he was disappointed that the Rainbow Coalition failed.
# posted by : 1:54 PM
: 1:54 PM
Francis> I am inclined to agree that Mike German was not too happy that the RC collapsed. There was something in the news about Mike German taking up jogging - if so, this demonstrates that for every mess there's a siliver lining. Each to his/her own, for Mike getting some exercise is pure Ag.
# posted by : 9:03 PM
: 9:03 PM
Pete,
After 8 years are you really incaple of correctly spelling the name of the Assembly Member for Torfaen?
David Collins
After 8 years are you really incaple of correctly spelling the name of the Assembly Member for Torfaen?
David Collins
That does appear to be the case, David. I have now corrected it. Presumably, you are also unaware that I hate being called Pete! :-)
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